Unconscious biases lead to problems if left unchecked. In this episode, Patrick Veroneau focuses on understanding people’s biases and behaviors and leverages this knowledge to create a better world. When you understand these biases, you become a better communicator. Patrick digs deeper into the division that is created by people’s behaviors, the Pygmalion Effect, and the importance of creating inclusion. Tune in and learn the better way to be better.
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How Our Bias And Behaviors Are Creating A World We Don’t Want
Thanks for reading this episode. I was working with an individual who in our work, had called me the Behaviors Guy. As I think about that, a lot of the work that I do is around behavior, so I am the behavior guy. This episode is all about that. It’s about behaviors. There seems to be so much division now in this country on so many different issues, whether it’s race, COVID, wearing or don’t wearing masks, you like the police, you don’t like the police, Black Lives Matter, All Lives Matter or whatever it is.
The Pygmalion Effect
In the work that I do around behaviors, one of the things that have resonated with me through this whole thing is this idea of what’s called the Pygmalion Effect. I use this word a lot in terms of leadership development that I do whether it’s with teams, individuals or organizations. Some aren’t going to like to hear this but we are creating the environments that we say we don’t want to live in by our expectations. I’m going to walk through how that happens. I’m going to reference one study that I use quite often. The title of it is Leadership and expectations: Pygmalion effects and other self-fulfilling prophecies in organizations.
It was published by an individual, a researcher named Dov Eden, and it was in The Leadership Quarterly in 1992. As I said, it’s an article that I use quite often, in the work that I do. It’s a rather lengthy study or paper. It’s about 38 pages but there was so much in here that talks about many different things from the Pygmalion effect to the Golem effect, which is the opposite of Pygmalion to self-fulfilling prophecies and transformational leadership with a leader-member exchange and how all of these come into play.We are pack animals, we need each other, and we're looking for connections. Click To Tweet
What I thought I do on this is talk about what is Pygmalion and relate it back to the environment that we’re in because even though this paper that I’m referencing talks about self-fulfilling prophecy and organizations, we can look at this as though it’s self-fulfilling prophecies in societies where we’re living now. I’m going to make the case that this happens in our societies like it does in organizations. First I want to talk about pre-Pygmalion and this was work that was done around what’s called Theory X and Theory Y. It was introduced in 1960 by a researcher named Douglas McGregor.
I’m going to read something here around Theory X and Theory Y to give you an idea of what the concept is about. McGregor described the circular self-fulfilling prophecy by which manager’s assumptions or expectations determine how they treat their subordinates, which in turn affects how the subordinates respond. A manager acting on Theory X assumptions mistrusts workers, refrains from delegating authority to them and supervisors and them closely.
This leads to the fulfillment of the manager’s prophecy as workers so treated react by exerting less effort on the job. In contrast, belief in Theory Y leads to a manager who trusts their people and seeks ways of achieving greater integration between individual and organizational goals. McGregor held that workers live up to the trust placed in them and respond responsibly to the challenge by redoubling their efforts and redoubling their commitment and motivation.
We can see when we talk about Theory X and Theory Y, how does that relate to how we treat other people? Let’s use the political parties, for example. If I’m a conservative, how might I look towards somebody that’s more liberal? I expect them to act a certain way. I treat them a certain way based on my own beliefs and approaches. By doing that, I reinforce those behaviors that I probably would say I don’t like and that other individual. It creates what’s called a self-fulfilling prophecy. I don’t trust you and I’m going to treat you in a way that says, “I don’t trust you,” or vice versa liberal toward conservative. It doesn’t matter, whatever the issue is. Anybody that we’re having an issue with our beliefs in who we think that person is playing itself out here.
Things have gotten so much worse now, because of our isolation. We are in front of each other far less and also when we are, we’re masked up. Oftentimes not able to see who the other person is. It’s almost like we’re hiding behind a mask, literally. I do believe that it impacts our level of civility toward each other. I will often do in some of the workshops what I call the Civility Scale. I will start out with texting or email and go all the way to in-person. What I do is, I say that when we’re texting or emailing somebody, that’s where our level of civility is probably at its lowest because there’s such a buffer there. I don’t have interaction with them. Whereas if I’m in person with them, even if I’m on the phone with them, it’s a scale that I’m less abrasive, potentially, on the phone than I am in a text, or in an email. I’m even less so if it’s in person.
Let’s face it, there are things that we would say or do on a text or an email, that if we were face to face with a person, we probably wouldn’t do that. One of the examples that I will often use in this if we think about road rage. We think of somebody cutting into a line of traffic. Imagine you’re in the grocery store, and I’m waiting and there’s a little bit of room between me and the cart in front of me and somebody slides their cart in that would have a different approach. Nobody’s going to be tolerant of that in a grocery store or few are but in an automobile, we seem to have far more ability to be able to do that, out of the grocery store and back to Pygmalion.
The first Pygmalion study was done by Lenore Jacobson and Robert Rosenthal. This was in 1963. They looked at kids in grade school, and they had them all take an IQ test but then what they did was they arbitrarily labeled some of these kids as academic bloomers. It had nothing to do with their actual scores but they put them down as academic bloomers and let their instructors know which kids were the academic bloomers. What they found was at the end of the school year or the follow-up from this study, that those kids that were rated or ranked as the academic bloomers did better than the other kids in the control group. It had nothing to do with their actual IQ scores.
What they then did, the most famous study was done in 1968, which was called Pygmalion in the Classroom. It’s a similar type of setting but what they did was they had students and their instructors. The instructors were told, “Here are your kids that are high potential, these kids are average potential, and these kids are unknown.” At the end of the semester, when these kids were graded. What they found was that those kids that were high potential, again, it had nothing to do with their actual potential, did the best.
The average kids did average and those that were unknown were scattered somewhere in between there. What it started to do was uncover how our treatment toward others of what we expect of them creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. Here we talk about it in a school setting. Another researcher then went on, a gentleman named Sterling Livingston and he said, “Let’s take a look at this from a standpoint of management. What happens there?” We already have some idea of what happens because when we can go back and think of Douglas McGregor’s work in regards to Theory X and Theory Y, we can see where this goes but Livingston did the same thing with managers and employees. He saw the same results.
To me, it gets even more interesting when we look at the author of this study, who was involved in some research as well with the Israel Defense Forces. Here they are looking at Pygmalion as it relates to the armed services. In this, there were 100 individuals that were involved in a study of officers going through this training course which was going to be a written course at the end. They were for instructors and what the instructors were told was, “Here are the assessments that have been done for each of your cadets that are going to be in your class. We want you to memorize these so who you have in your class.” It was based on command potential so it was high potential, potential unknown, or average potential.
In the written exam, what they found was at the end of this course that those that were considered high potential scored the best, statistically significant on this written exam yet it had nothing to do with their actual potential. It gets more interesting in that study. What they then did was they said, “Let’s take a look on a couple of different areas in terms of these individuals that went through this boot camp.” When we look at performance, we can again see those designed as high or those that were designated as high in command potential, significantly outperformed their classmates in all the subjects that we rated.
When we looked at attitudes, each of the trainees filled out a questionnaire that included items asking whether they would recommend the course to a friend, if they desired to go on to the next course, as well as their overall satisfaction. On all of those, the ones that were considered high expectation trainees, they rated all of those more favorably. Lastly, what they then did was they looked and said, “Let’s ask leadership.”
What they found was that the trainees that were considered high potential rated their instructors’ leadership significantly higher. Why is this? It would seem through each of those that when they’re asked those that were considered high potential probably got more attention, more expectations were put on them of positive things that they could do all based on what they were told they should expect from this individual. They lived up to that. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I go back to our society now, how does this play into it? If you hear somebody is a Trump supporter, what do you do? Automatically, you start to have a vision of who this person is and you treat them as such. I would argue, you start this process of a self-fulfilling prophecy and vice versa. If you are a Trump supporter and you’re looking at somebody that is a democrat or you think of them as more liberal, you are automatically thinking of them as a certain individual and treating them such when you have interactions with them.
This is detrimental to our ability to be open to looking at just because somebody has a different perspective on things, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re a bad person. The bottom line of this is to say that if we want to see better out of people, we should expect more and we should let them know that. I’ll give you an example of that in work that I do with organizations where we’ll talk about the problem employee. I believe that managers are part of the problem for the problem employee, because basically, we create this self-fulfilling prophecy in them.
One way to get out of that is to place different expectations on that individual. What I mean by that is to let this person know, “You’re better than this. This is not who you are. I don’t believe that you are an uncaring person. We may have differences but I don’t believe that you mean to be mean-spirited on this, that you disrespect other people the way I’ve been told that your group does.” You can see how important that is. I’m telling somebody that because we have differences, I don’t think that this person necessarily is uncaring. They’re selfish or whatever it might be.
The Golem Effect
When we have interactions with people, if we go in with the expectation of the positive, we will tend to look for those things as opposed to wanting to reinforce why this person is such a bad person. We’re creating part of that. When we go on, we look at what’s called the Golem Effect and the Golem Effect is the opposite of Pygmalion. It says that if I don’t expect much of you, you won’t disappoint either. That’s where we spend the majority of our time it seems now is we don’t expect much of somebody else and we’re not disappointed because we don’t get much out of other people when we don’t expect too much. That self-fulfilling prophecy is coming into play. They’re living up to that negative bias that we believe this person is.Rather than looking for the negative things in other people, raise your standards for everybody. Click To Tweet
My wife and I have friends that are both liberal and conservative. Yet when we’re together, and we both can say as we sit, I would say somewhere in the middle on this and we share beliefs that straddle both sides of this. They are all close to us for different reasons, but they’re all good people and they care about other people. Yet, if you didn’t know these individuals and we put labels out there, you might not have that same interpretation, understanding, or appreciation for who these people are. I go back to isolation. The less we are able to interact with other people we live off of labels and those labels then create this self-fulfilling prophecy.
The Leader-Member Exchange
One of the last pieces that I will talk about is what’s called the Leader-Member Exchange. This is extremely powerful in the world that we’re in now. One of the researchers on this was a gentleman named George Graen, the Leader-Member Exchange talks about what’s called an In-Group and an Out-Group. When you are part of the in-group, your performance tends to be better but if I feel like I’ve been pushed outside of the group, a couple of different things can happen. One, I could disengage. The other is that I could engage in ways that are damaging to society, the organization, and the team, as a whole, because I feel I’ve been pushed outside of this group.
We see this on such a heightened level, of the in-group versus the out-group. When we push people outside and we don’t find ways to include them, we are exacerbating this leader-member exchange, this in-group and out-group mentality. In much of the work that I do around the CABLES Leadership System that I’ve developed, one of the behaviors in CABLES is around belongingness. In belongingness, there’s so much research around the impact that this has.
We are pack animals. We need each other and we’re looking for connections. We could go to a prison that maybe somebody from a gang and we talked to them, there are many interviews that you can pull up that talk about, or where you’ll hear gang members talk about how growing up they were always ostracized, always the troubled person, and always looked at as different. What did they do? They found a group that accepted them. They became part of an in-group. Unfortunately, it was a violent in-group but it still was somebody that they were part of an in-group. They were part of somebody, a group that accepted who they were.
You look at the violence that’s around us. We have in-groups and out-groups. We have done little to try and say, “How do we create inclusion for everybody here? Regardless of our differences, how can we start finding a place that we can agree and work from there to build off of that?” We clearly can. We need to because when we come down to it, there are many things that we share as core beliefs or values that we all want. We’re approaching them in different ways. Either Golem is preventing us from looking at other people that they want the same things or we’re not leveraging Pygmalion enough to be able to create the environments that we want.
That’s what this is about, so rather than talk about strategies from a standpoint of what we would call a Pygmalion Leader, that somebody that basically tries to create an environment of expectation of others. We are looking at this from a standpoint of creating Pygmalion Citizens, Pygmalion Individuals, where rather than looking for the negative things in other people, it’s let’s raise our standards for everybody here, in terms of how we’re going to treat each other. There’s real ownership that we can have here and when we do that.
When we can raise that expectation for us as individuals, as human beings, and sharing probably many core desires, we will find that we’re able to overcome much of the divisiveness. This isn’t to say utopia or that there’s this Pollyanna Approach here but certainly, it’s to say that we can do it without violence and disruptive behaviors in a way that will continue to erode our society. To me, I look at the situations that we’re in now as dress rehearsals.
We will face bigger challenges down the road and our ability to navigate these successfully now will do far more for how we will set ourselves up to be able to deal with bigger things that are coming. I realize this has been a long rant, but it is such a powerful and important topic. If you haven’t had an opportunity to dig into Pygmalion, Golem, self-fulfilling prophecies and how we play into this, our behaviors, how we create this environment that we say we don’t want to see, we have the ability to create the environment we do want to see. It’s going to require us to have a different set of expectations on how we show up toward other people and I hope you’ll take that challenge. Peace.
- Leadership and expectations: Pygmalion effects and other self-fulfilling prophecies in organizations
- Pygmalion in the Classroom
- Leader-Member Exchange
- CABLES Leadership System
In this episode, Patrick Veroneau tackles the things that people are facing during the Coronavirus pandemic – the pandemic itself, the racial and social unrest, the financial crisis that most people are going through, and the countless growth opportunities that come along with it. He dives into the roles and responsibilities that each person has in order to get out of the situation. He also provides a new vantage point on how you can look at the pandemic and use it to reconnect with yourself and rethink your future and your goals.
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A Pandemic, Racial Unrest And A Financial Crisis: Our 3 Greatest Growth Opportunities
This episode is one that I’ve wanted to do for quite some time. It’ll piggyback off of an article that I wrote around these three things. It’s in relation to three crises that we’re all dealing with right now on different levels. Probably, no one reading this blog has experienced all three of these things in their lifetime and here we are, experiencing all three within the same calendar year. As difficult as these are, I believe they provide us the greatest opportunity for where we want to go next. One is the pandemic. One is the racial and social unrest that we’re experiencing. The other is the financial crisis that we’re experiencing as a result of the pandemic. I’ll start with the racial unrest. I would like to call it not only racial unrest but social unrest.
Racial And Social Unrest
If we look at where we are now as a country, people are underwhelmed. I believe that the pandemic has a great deal to deal with some of the behaviors that are exhibited on the level that they have because we know what isolation and stress do to us in terms of how we behave if it’s not managed. When we look at both racial and social unrest, especially racial unrest, racism has been a problem in this country since its inception. Globally, racism is something that we’ve had to deal with. What is going on in the US provides us an important opportunity to try and get this right, but that’s not going to happen without understanding a couple of things. One is this is all based on our behaviors. Secondly, it’s taking a deeper dive into looking at our unconscious biases because that is where this lies. We spend so much time judging other people without understanding who they are, where they came from, and what they’ve experienced. We miss the opportunity to look at somebody in a more favorable light.
That’s why they call them unconscious biases. They’re not conscious and not recognized most of the time, they’re unconscious. One of the ones that I see being elevated most right now is confirmation bias. Everybody thinks they are right. When we think we’re right as it relates to confirmation bias, what we do is we discount all the other evidence that suggests that maybe we’re not 100% right or there is another story here that can be told, another solution, or another reason for what’s going on and we refuse to look at it unless we are able to do that, we are doomed to the struggle that we’re continuing to see right now. We can’t overcome the challenges that we’re facing if we’re aggressive on each other rather than being aggressive on the problems. There’s a whole host of behaviors and things that we can work on there but listening certainly is one of them.People are getting all wrapped up, concerned, scared, and living in stress that they're behaving in a counterproductive way. Click To Tweet
The model that I use is cables addresses all of these things in terms of congruence. Walking the talk, listening, and being empathetic about how important those things are. Unless we’re able to do that, our challenges around racial unrest and social unrest will not be resolved. It’s all about our behaviors. The best way to find out my personal role in this is to look at what I call the most important leadership tool that we have. We are talking about leadership here, and we all have the ability to lead on this. We’re talking about the mirror. We all need to take a good, hard look at ourselves in the mirror and say, “What role am I playing in the dysfunction that’s being experienced right now throughout our country in my community?” I guarantee you, we all play a role in this. Until we do that, we’re not going to be able to overcome this.
Next, we talk about the pandemic. We are so worried about this virus and catching this virus. When I look at this, we know the stress and anxiety that it causes when we live in the space of fear and what that does to our immune system. People are getting all wrapped up, concerned, scared, and living in stress that they’re behaving in a way that is counterproductive to what they’re hoping they’re going to avoid. They’re reducing their immune system through their worry, arguing, and poor choices that we’ve made to take better care of ourselves. We live in a time where obesity is rampant in this country. One piece of research says one of the vaccines coming out doesn’t seem to be as effective in people that are obese.
For obesity, we all have control over our lifestyle. If we want to protect ourselves against a virus, we should treat our bodies the best way we can so that we don’t compromise what our body can do on its own. That protects us from viruses and bacteria. I’m not saying that’s the only thing that we can do here but let’s control what we can control. Suppose we did a better job of looking at what lifestyle choices we’re making. How can we contribute to making better lifestyle changes, so we give ourselves the best opportunity to overcome the viruses, bacteria, and different illnesses that are going to come about through our ability to deal with these things in stress, making better choices in terms of how we modify our diet, and our exercise? Those are in our control.
This could be a great opportunity for people to look back and say, “Remember when that happened? I realized how important it was for me to regain my health physically, mentally, spiritually, and emotionally. By doing that, it put me in a much better place.” We have that opportunity. Lastly, when we talk about the financial crisis that we’re in right now, we’re seeing record levels of unemployment. I look at this from a couple of different aspects. One is it can be the catalyst for a lot of people who are unhappy in whatever roles they’re playing to say, “What do I want to do? What kind of job do I want? What kind of lifestyle do I want to live?” We have that opportunity right now but also, part of that financial is to say, “How am I spending my money now? What things am I doing to save? What foolish things am I buying to impress other people that are causing me to be in a place where when there’s an emergency, I can’t deal with it because I built no nest egg? There’s nothing there.”We all play a role in this pandemic, and when we understand that, it provides us the opportunity to get out of it. Click To Tweet
I realized that some people are going to say, “I work day and night just to make ends meet.” That’s where I go back to asking yourself, what do you want for yourself, career, or something else that’s going to provide you with that level of security that you need financially? Take a hard look at what that might be. This is an opportunity again, to say, “How do I want to make this different?” Not to blame somebody else, the government, our politicians, somebody in my community, and a virus, whatever it might be. We have the ability to pull out that mirror and look at ourselves. How have my behaviors impacted my financial security?
How have my behaviors impacted my ability to be healthy by the choices that I made? How have my behaviors led or contributed to the social unrest that we see now? We all play a role in this. When we understand that, it provides us the opportunity to get out of it. If we look at these things as opportunities as opposed to problems that can’t be solved, we will all be stronger because of this. Believe me, this has not been thoroughly enjoyable for me either. I’ve made changes based on what I was doing because of this situation. When I look back on it, I know that those were things that I should have been doing in the first place and it provided this opportunity.
We all have the ability to make choices that will benefit us in each of these areas financially, our own health as it relates to the pandemic, and our own behaviors as it relates to the social unrest that we’re on right now. We control these things. If we model positive examples for ourselves, we provide an opportunity for other people to do the same thing. I realized, this has been a rant. It’s something important right now. We have so much opportunity and this isn’t going to be solved by blaming other people or digging our feet in and saying, “I’m right. You’re stupid, you’re selfish.” Whatever it might be, we need each other. That’s the only way we’re getting through this. I hope you find an opportunity here to pull out your mirror, take a look at yourself, and what you can do because we all have the ability to rise above our bests in these situations. I hope you’ll go out there and do it. Peace.
Being a leader has its perks, but when faced with a situation that puts your leadership to the test, you better be steadfast. Brigadier General (Ret.) Becky Halstead joins this episode to share her story about how she got into the military and her ideas about equality. She talks about why you should make your choices based on your strengths and why you should never apologize for being excellent. Learn how she views opportunities whenever it arises and understands what the three-second rule is and its effects on how you communicate and connect with others. Know the importance of discipline as she explains the role it plays in decision making, and why you need to be more selfless the higher you are on the ladder.
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Brigadier General (Ret.) Becky Halstead Speaks About The Importance Of Being STEADFAST In Leadership
My guest is Becky Halstead. She is a retired Brigadier General from the US Army. What’s also interesting about her background is that she was the 2nd class of women to be enrolled at West Point. I enjoyed our conversation so much as she talked about many things that are relevant in regards to leading and reimagining what it means for us to lead. It’s an episode you’re going to want to read. Let’s get into it.
Becky, thank you so much for being on the show. I appreciate it. In this environment that we’re in right now, you bring so much perspective in terms of your experience. I would love to provide the opportunity. First, can you to talk about how did you navigate your career in the armed services and then how does it relate to what you’re doing?
I love the question about how did I navigate my career because most of us in the military do not feel like we navigate a thing. We take the oath and in my case, the army, 27 years where the army sends me and we have a saying that, “Home is where the army sends me.” I did go to West point in 1977 and 1981. I was in the 2nd class of women to be accepted into the Military Academy. That’s always a fun factoid for people because it’s not too hard to figure out. That probably wasn’t a lot of fun. First of all, your first year at any Academy isn’t a lot of fun, male or female, but when you’re the new ingredient, let’s say to the formula, it can be exciting.
I grew up in Upstate New York, a small country town with no traffic lights. I played a lot of sports and I wanted to go to college to be a physical education teacher. I did tease it when I went to West Point. I was 6’ tall and now I’m 5’1/2”. When you grow up in a town with no traffic lights, it’s easy to be a stud or stud at because if you show up, you’re going to be on the team because there’s only so many of us. I thought I was a good athlete and that’s why I wanted to do that. I loved coaching. I knew very young that I loved being part of a team. I loved leading and figuring out how to work together to make something happen.
I love the win. I love working through the loss. How do I control my attitude and how do I get the team to put that aside, rework it and get to the next one? My mother was reading that they were letting women go into the academy and that was in 1976. She said, “This sounds like you.” I’m like, “What? Me?” There’s no other you in the room. “What do you mean me?” I’m like, “I don’t want to go to an Academy. I know nothing about the military.” My dad was an IBM engineer and my mom was a dental hygienist. I said, “If you help me with the letters of recommendation and the whole process, I’ll try.” Sure enough, I made a deal and we tried. For some reason, I got accepted, which is still unknown to me at this point because when I look at my classmates and when I got to West Point, 4.0 GPAs. They graduated 1st and 2nd in their class. I was at the top fifteen but I came from a town with no traffic lights. There wasn’t that many that graduated.When it gets hard, rule number one is don't quit. Rule number two, refer back to rule number one. Click To Tweet
My mom helped. My very strong family values and community went off to West Point. At West Point, as far as navigating my career, I learned don’t quit when it gets hard. There are two rules. Rule number one is don’t quit. Rule number two, refer back to rule number one. The military ended up being perfect for me because we do have this keep it simple soldier. Our leadership model is Be, Know, Do. It isn’t rocket science but it takes a great deal of discipline to be a strong leader. You got to choose the harder right over the easier wrong and to maintain your character, your integrity, and to learn every day and improve your competence. The military worked for me. It was tactical, operational, and strategic.
I loved soldiering, being a soldier, and leading soldiers. I love the whole human dimension. I was a logistician so I get a lot of opportunities to speak to the supply chain management side of the world now about leading in that arena, which you can imagine is very chaotic. When you hear all about the distribution of everything from toilet paper to vaccines, In my 27 years after I graduated in 1981, I became a logistician and I served 27 years in the military. I moved eighteen times. I served in Afghanistan and Iraq. A lot of people say, “What’s that like to be a woman leading a military in those countries?”
I’m like, “They didn’t have any women in their military but there was always an expectation of respect. I always received respect.” Sometimes I tease a little bit. I felt our coalition forces were more respectful than some of the men on my own side or the same team. It’s taken our military a long time to integrate women into all sources fully, all branches and all subject matter skills. As I navigated through my military career, I made the best choices that I thought for me based on my DNA, my strengths, and I wouldn’t change very much of that. It worked out well but I also saw the need that we need to open everything to women. If women can do as well or better, then they had to have the same opportunity.
It’s always been about standards. If I meet the standard, don’t exclude me because I’m a woman. That was one of the hardest parts of navigating through the military. There sometimes wasn’t the same opportunity for a logistician, supply chain manager, or for a woman in that course. Having to navigate makes it part of the challenge. It makes it part of the fun. It makes it part of the, “We were innovative and we did that. We were successful and help others be that way.” I do a lot of coaching now for other people coming into the military, men and women.
The thing that I was thinking about as you were telling that story is that it seems as though your need for the team was satisfied in the environment you were in that you were talking about before you went into West Point. Also, what I hear and what’s interesting with West Point is now they talk about grit and you demonstrated that through your own perseverance.The acronym JOY means, Jesus first, Others second, Yourself next. That’s the perfect model. Click To Tweet
The grit factor is something that a lot of people talk about. Another person you might want to get on here sometimes is Shannon Polson. She’s written the book The Grit Factor. I don’t know how many women are involved with it but there’s a lot of women from a lot of industries and military service that was part of her book and now we were part of the NBC series on TV. I love the way she has captured what is grit. It’s a little bit different in all of us. At the end of the day, it’s a real strong determination to help others realize their full potential not to be successful but to be successful and then to be significant, to understand the value of your life and that you have a purpose.
I do believe there’s a big difference because there’s a lot of people out there who are very successful but they’re willing to enjoy their success for themselves and they don’t share it. That’s beyond me. My dad taught us a long time ago because I wasn’t sure about this whole concept of making money. You don’t make a lot of money in the military but you don’t go poorly, don’t get me wrong. You have benefits and everything else but it’s not like you joined the military to become rich in terms of money. You join the military to become rich inside because you have such a purpose. When we leave the military and we retired from the military, we have new opportunities that now bring on a different financial opportunity. My dad always said, “Don’t apologize for being excellent. Don’t apologize for making more money than something that makes you feel comfortable because the more you make, the more you can give.” I love that.
It’s very interesting too when you talk about happiness versus purpose. They’re not the same thing. I’ll be getting on a webinar to talk about specifically that. In research that’s been done when they looked at people that were happy, the happiness came from stuff that you received. Purpose and meaning were what you did for others. What they found was those that were about others tended to rate themselves as happier.
The way I equate that is joy. You hardly ever hear me say I’m happy. I‘m happy is not a word I use. Joy to me is definitely in the same bucket as purpose. I tell people that the greatest joy of leading is leaving a legacy. That is about to teach, coach, and mentor others. When you see them do wonderful things and even surpass you, I always talk about this one. A gentleman that I grew up in the army with and it happened that in Iraq, he was one of my brigade commanders. I was a General, he was a Colonel but we’d grown up his peers. It happened that that was the timing of things and he was a little bit younger than me. There was always so much respect and admiration for each other and not just for him for me because I was the General.
After I retired, he made General and I was like, “I couldn’t be happier if I was his mother.” He then made two stars. He ended up making four stars and he runs all the logistics for the army. He’s famous because he is the four-star General Gus Perna that they chose to be the one that navigates and does the logistics with the vaccine once it’s out there and everything else. I go like, “That’s my brother.” It’s joy and I’m very faith-based. That’s very personal. I share it when I speak on leadership because it is part of who I am. It’s part of my DNA. It’s part of what I rely on. I had a Sunday school teacher who once said the acronym JOY. It’s Jesus first, Others second, and Yourself next. Isn’t that the perfect model?
As you were talking about the challenges, I have found in my experience when I interview people that have been successful in a wide range of areas. It often comes down to when we talk about the challenges that they’ve had to deal with at some point that helped shape who they become. I would say our past is our power. I’m wondering from your own experience as you look back, what is one of those challenges that you look at now and think, “This helped define or shape who I’ve become?”
It’s always hard for me to choose. I do this one day workshop on personal leadership. What is your personal leadership and how did you get there? It’s a journey. It happens over time. I tell people, put above the line those things that powerfully impacted you. There still could have been a challenge but it was a positive challenge. Those things below the line that what you would put as a downer or a negative challenge and how those shaped you. I put 6 to 8 things on that chart. I have other people do it and then everybody shares a story. The nice thing about that is everybody that starts on the team gets to know each other.
If I think about my mental chart, below the line, the first and most significant event of my life that truly has shaped my path was, I told you I was very much into sports and I want to be a physical education teacher. The reason why was because I loved spending time in the gym. I played nine varsity sports in high school. Again, you can be on nine varsity teams when you come from a town with no traffic lights. When you come from a small town, you have only 2 or 3 coaches. I had the same coach for basketball as I did in softball for several years. In my junior year, my best coach also loved parachuting and she was doing a twelve-person parachute jump. When they all break away from the formation, someone broke away, pulled their chute too early, came up before she even could pull her chute, and knocked her unconscious. She didn’t ever pull the chute and she died. She went through the top of her fiancé’s parachute.
It was a very significant traumatic event. For me, it turned my life switch off. I didn’t even want to live, function, go to school, and go to college. Because I came from a small community, those teachers wrapped their arms around me. Again, team and they go like, “You’d be letting your coach down if she could see how you’re responding to this.” She would expect you to be a leader in this group, pull the rest of the kids together, and say, “Let’s keep winning. Let’s do this.” We started wearing black ribbons on our arms and things like that.
I had already applied to West Point. It was either 11 or 12 days before her death, she wrote a letter of recommendation for me. When I went to the Senator’s office in New York for my interview, he said, “You’re from that town where a high school teacher was killed.” I said, “Yes, she was killed parachuting. As a matter of fact, there shouldn’t be a letter of recommendation in my file.” I don’t know how many days later, a week, two weeks later, his office sent me my entire packet and in there was her handwritten because we didn’t have computers then. It was typewriters or handwriting. It was a handwritten letter from her letter of recommendation for me to go to West Point.
There were so many things I learned about that. Number one, she was saying things about me that I didn’t even know she felt or that she saw. She was seeing my potential. Immediately as a young person you go, “I need to see the potential in other people.” When I read that letter, the light switch went back on. In the letter, she said, “I’m having the opportunity to do things that were not even dreamt up for her in her time. She’s about 8 to 10 years older than me. Every decade, more opportunity arises. What are we going to do with that? How are we going to embrace that and help others embrace that? Anyhow, before that was then I developed a very strong relationship with her mother. I was as tough as she was. I played golf with her into her 80s. She gave me not one benefit. If I went into the water, she’d come over later. She’ll lay her golf club down.”The whole purpose of communication is to connect. Click To Tweet
I stayed in touch with her forever. When I wrote my book on leadership, In my book, I don’t put names of people. That’s not the type of book I write. It’s about leadership, leadership principles, things I learned, stories from my military career. I don’t put any names in the book but I want to talk about my coach because she had such a powerful impact on me for leading myself and others to be part of a team. When I truly felt the full impact of that, it was almost 30 years later in Iraq. In Iraq when I would go to the hospital and I would visit my wounded soldiers and they would already be in that PTSD or post-traumatic stress of why did my buddy die and I live?
I can remember the first time I had that conversation, it was the experience of having gone through that as a teenager asking why of my coach and not wanting to go on myself that I could understand what my soldier was going through. I can remember saying, “None of us will ever know why, ever but what I do is this. Living your life honoring that person you thought so much of. Honor them by living your life with the way they saw you as a friend, as a subordinate, or as a peer. Live out your full potential.” Who would know that that would happen?
That was the whole purpose, for me, of that situation to learn that. I’m not going to lie to you. There were a lot of peaks and valleys but when you can go back now and reflect over all that time, that’s the goodness that you see on such a tragic event. We both know there are so many people who are suffering from isolation and losing loved ones who they can’t even hold their hand and they can’t have a funeral. We can be such a voice of encouragement. It doesn’t matter when that event happened to us, we have to be able to articulate it so we can help people.
Two things that I think about when I hear that, one is empathy. The strong demonstration of empathy there is so apparent. When I think about the letter that you got to see these things that were said about you, it reminds me of the responsibility that we have in terms of what we set for expectations for others. How powerful that is that if we don’t expect much of other people, then oftentimes they will deliver not much, but the opposite is also true that if we hold people to higher standards of, you can do this and you’re better than this. There’s a drive that we have inside of us. I will jokingly say when I speak and I talk about the Pygmalion effect. I will say, “There were teachers that I had that didn’t expect a lot from me and there were others that expected a great deal for me. I didn’t seem to disappoint on either side of that.” The power that it has that we have over other people.
It also taught me the power of a handwritten note. The power of letting people know how you feel like, “Don’t wait.” Throughout my entire career, I was known as someone who wrote a lot of notes and a lot of letters because what was very apparent to me is that there are a lot of people who are not blessed with having a wonderful family as I had. My parents are still living. They’re in their 80s. They’re vibrant. They’re still big cheerleaders. If they could put an email with feedback when I go to speak or somebody read my book, that’s on the refrigerator with a gold star and I’m 61 years old.
Not everybody had that joy. I also always looked at my organization. I would look for those who maybe were sitting alone, walking alone, or falling out of a run in the morning. Why are they falling out? It isn’t because they’re not in shape. This is something that’s up here in the heart that’s causing them to feel defeated or whatever. I was never a yeller or a screamer. You would see sometimes leaders yelling and screaming at people to get back in formation. I never ran faster because someone yelled at me. Instead, even though as a leader, the expectations that the leaders upfront when you’re doing all the running, I started out up front and then I fall back to the wayside and I talked to people and I’d be like, “Can you believe they pay us to do this?”
I have to go back to the back and I’d run. I’d always look for the people that fell out because I want to know why and you found out so many interesting things about people and simple things like sending Christmas cards. I had a whole battalion deployed to Kosovo when I was stationed at Fort Drum. I could not be in Kosovo with them because it was one of my many units but I can reach out to them. I did a Christmas card to every soldier and then I put a red, white, and blue tacky candy in the envelope. I admit I had my driver and my secretary help me lick all those envelopes and get them all boxed up. I signed all of them and then get the candy put it in there.
I can’t remember how many. It was about 400. It’s not like I got 400 responses going, “Thank you, Ma’am.” I probably got four responses but one response is what counted. This young kid sent me a note and he said, “It’s the only Christmas card I received.” It makes you emotional because of how sad that is. On the other hand, you go, “I’m so glad I sent 400 even though only one was this powerful.” You don’t do it to get 400 thank yous. You do it because of your heart and your mind, which I believe that’s what leadership is. It’s the fusion of those two things. That one kid was worth 4,000 cards.
It’s interesting when you tell that story. I think about behaviors and the research that I look at in terms of what are the behaviors that create leaders. One of the things that often comes up is around belongingness. The research that’s out there on belongingness is we’re wired for connection. To me, as leaders, it’s our responsibility to bring people inside the group and not make them feel isolated. When we do that, people want to do more. They’re inspired to do that and you’ll feel like you’ve made them feel part of what’s going on as opposed to you’re on the outside.
When I speak on leadership, I have one slide that I like to show. I’m on the border of Syria and I’m out there talking to some of my soldiers that were one of the bases but I’m also talking to the leaders who were responsible for the physical security of that base. The title is very simple. It says, Circulate, Communicate and Connect. That’s the whole purpose of the communication. I tease and I say I’m 5’1/2”. When soldiers stand in front of you, they stand in attention. They look straight out, which means they’re looking straight over my head. I said, “No, look down here, look me in the eye.” I would tell them that when I look you in the eye, I can see your soul. I can feel your soul and I want to connect. I can also tell, are you nervous? Are you confident? Are you scared? All those things. That is the whole purpose of communication is to connect.If we all pause for three seconds before talking, we'll be a lot happier with what we say. Click To Tweet
When you’re with your eyes, you’re listening with a different sense of reading. It’s an awareness of others that certainly you speak to.
It is. You shake somebody’s hand, is it cold? Is it sweaty? I was known as the Colonel or the General that hugged too because I’m just going to do it. I had 30,000 people in my command, we operate out of 55 different bases, and we did all the logistics for Iraq. There’s no way I could go to all 55 bases and say goodbye to everybody and thank everybody. It’s an impossibility but where I could go, I did and when I could, I did. I don’t even know how many that was but we did send a lot of people home right out of the base where I lived which was Balad.
I told my Sergeant Major, “I don’t care what time of night it is, what time of day it is if we’re available, we’re going to go out onto the tarmac. We’re going to say thank you and put their tired butts in a seat on a plane and let them go home.” There are a couple of pictures of me embracing them. We got all of our gear on. Let me tell you what. When you slap about 300 people in the back with that IVA, it was like your hands bruised by then at the end of the day. I embrace, encourage, and thank people. I went back to my headquarters and a young major who had been a little bit of a thorn in my side. I felt that he was there illegally. It was crazy. He stayed for the whole year. We made him work.
He wasn’t real happy about it but we have disgruntled people sometimes in our organizations. He came to me and he approached me and said, “I know you’re going out and you’re thanking everybody before you put them on the plane. How do you know that all of them deserve a thank you?” If you have not read the book Three Seconds, you need to read it because the whole thesis is, “If we all pause for three seconds, we’ll be a lot happier with what we say.” My mother gave it to me. That’s telling. I was pressing the three-second rule because inside my head, I’m going, “You are exactly the person I would have a hard time saying thank you to.”
I know that you have to give credit where credit is due and where you need to deliver consequences, you deliver consequences. I paused and I said, “I don’t know every individual that I said thank you to, slap them on the back, shook their hand, and put them on the plane. I don’t know every single one of them. I don’t know if they’ve been a great performer, a good performer. I don’t know but here’s what I do know. I am thanking them for their service. They left their families, their homes, they volunteered to be in this military and they were gone for a year in combat. That alone deserves a thank you. Thank you for your service.” He didn’t say anything else which I’m so glad he didn’t say anything else. You don’t want to be rewarding, awarding, and recognizing people for things that are inflated because then it doesn’t have meaning. A simple thank is appropriate for almost everybody.
You thank them for the service which they did do. It wasn’t telling everybody you did the best. It was sincere in that regard.
I was very clear, that was for their service. That was for leaving their families, being dedicated to their country, coming into combat, and I’ll thank you for that. Put your tired butt on that seat, go back home and do great things. When you do an award like a Legion of Merit or a Bronze Star or any of those things, there has to be credibility to that. That has to be researched. You need to know that if I’m coming and putting a Bronze Star on your uniform, you’re going to be sure that my signature means that I agree that you earned it.
As we’ve been having this conversation, Becky, I had STEADFAST up and I’ve been looking at the acronym. As you’ve been going through telling your stories and examples, you’ve hit on about every one of these from selfless, trust, courage, attitude, discipline, family, friends, faith, accountability, standard setter, and teamwork. As we think about that from a standpoint of the environment that we’re in, steadfast obviously is very important to you. Is there one on there that you think is most important at this point?
For me, the most important one is the D, discipline. The reason why is because it takes a great deal of discipline to choose the harder right over the easier wrong. It takes a great deal of discipline to make sure you’re constantly thinking and deliberately thinking or my priorities in the right place. Some days, your family comes first. Some days, your job comes first. When you look at what’s going on, our first responders that are in the hospitals and they’re sleeping in a tent or sleeping at a hotel so they don’t infect their families, they’re putting their job and their family first but their job is first. They’re trying to save lives and they’re taking care of their family by not being there and infecting them.
Now, a family member might think, “You’re not putting me first. You’re putting your job first because you’re not home.” Eventually, they mature and understand. I was putting you first because my job is important because it’s about people. It’s about feeling. The D is for discipline because it’s for the simplest things. It’s for the most profound. Simple like being on time for a meeting, getting your work done on time, or helping a peer when it’s very inconvenient because it’s never convenient when somebody wants help.
That’s about being for others. That’s back to that meaning. It’s the purpose of, it’s not about ourselves. When we’re about other people, there is much more value to it. You also have a book that I would love to have an opportunity now to go back and read that book and have you on again to talk about that. I can have this in the show notes, I’d love for you to tell the audience, what is the book? Where can they get it?It takes a great deal of discipline to choose the harder right over the easier wrong. Click To Tweet
It’s 24/7: The First Person You Must Lead Is You. I put my dog tags on it because dog tags are very important to us in the military. We put those over our head and neck every day. We commit ourselves to being the best soldier that we can be. The best leader we can be for those that we lead. It has nothing to do with rank. It has to do with service. I put a star in the O in you because I believe everybody out there has star potential. A lot of people think because I was a General, that’s the catch like a good country-western song. You want to catch everybody. Everybody has star potential and that’s part of our leadership responsibility.
It is 30 leadership principles. It’s a quick read. It’s a fast read. It’s mostly storytelling. I give a principle and I tell stories as to how I either lived that out successfully or failed. It’s also about failure. Again, there are no names in it because it wasn’t about naming a bad boss or any of that. It was about situations from being a young Lieutenant to being a General. Where I got it right, where I got it wrong. It seems I’ve gotten a lot of great feedback from people on how it’s helped them to lead themselves better.
The reason why I say the first person you must lead in you is because sometimes we get caught up in the “I’m a leader, I’m in a leadership position. I get to tell everybody what to do, but I don’t have to follow the rules myself.” I could not agree with that at all. When I first started out in the army, I always had that rank has its privileges. You always wanted to get to the next rank. As I grew up I went, “Rank has its privileges. I hate that saying.” I think it should have been, “Rank has its responsibilities and the higher you go, the more selfless you better be.” That’s the book. It’s on my website, BeckyHalstead.com. Keep it simple, soldier.
That’s our hook to get you on the show again to be able to talk about the book. I’m looking forward to reading that. I really appreciate your time and certainly your service to our country.
Thank you so much. I love your questions and I’m going to go back and try to catch up on all your episodes.
Thank you. Becky’s story, her background is so inspiring. If you listen to the things that she had to say, there’s something that you can take away and apply it in your own life in terms of how you behave and how you lead those around you. I am so looking forward to having her on again to discuss her book 24/7: The First Person You Must Lead Is You. I’m sure it’s going to be phenomenal. I can’t wait to finish reading it. If you know somebody that would benefit from reading this blog, I would ask that you forward it to them. If you haven’t subscribed, please subscribe to the show. It would mean the world to me as always if you would leave a rating or a comment on this or any other episode because that’s how this message continues to get out there about re-imagining leadership. Do we need it more than ever? Until our next episode, I hope you’re able to go out there and rise above your best. Peace.
- Becky Halstead
- The Grit Factor
- Three Seconds
- 24/7: The First Person You Must Lead Is You
A lot of people think that big organizations thought up a unique idea that’s why they’re successful, but in reality, what they have are amazing systems that guarantee their success. Scotty Schindler, the founder of System 1357™, had proven this when what he thought was normal was seen as an out-of-the-box solution. In this episode, Scotty talks about what a system truly is when it comes to running your business and explains why you badly need it if you don’t have one in place yet. He also touches on self-leadership and why you have to look at yourself first before you can lead others effectively. Listen in and learn what he has to say about the different self-leadership principles and self-leadership diseases you might encounter along the way.
Listen to the podcast here:
Scotty Schindler Discusses The System That Creates Amazing Success
I am all about finding a better way to lead. That’s based on the behaviors that will inspire, empower, and compel others to want to follow where you want to go. My guest is Scotty Schindler. He is a successful businessman out of Australia, as well as a surfer. Having spent a semester way back when in college in Australia, it’s a country that I certainly love. The conversation that I had with Scotty is certainly one that I love as well. He talks about his System 1357 and how it created such success in his own life and how he has taken this as an opportunity to help other people succeed. That to me is the theme of this episode. Scotty is talking about how he is empowering other people to reach their own high levels of success. If that’s of interest to you, this is an episode you’re going to want to read. Let’s get into it.
Scotty, I thought it would be a great opportunity for us to get on this. You have been so successful in Australia, in both of your businesses from a real estate perspective, but also where you took this in terms of I think helping people to take the process that made you successful. You’re trying to do that to help other people. We’re in such a unique period of time right now. I’d love your perspective. How do you help people to navigate this based on your own experiences?
Thanks for having me. It’s good to be here, Patrick, across the world. How do we help people in this environment? It’s a unique environment. No one knows. No one can say, “This is what we did in the last pandemic.” No one can do that at the moment, but what we all can do is we can all be supportive and be there for everyone. That’s one thing that we know we can do. That’s one thing we can control. We can’t control everything, but we can’t control our emotions and we can control that decision making. As far as being able to help other people come in, that’s how I ran sales teams in the ‘90s. I got good at running sales teams and that was through helping other people achieve their goals, what they needed to do to make money as far as the sales team went.
If I helped enough people achieve their goals as a sales team, we achieved what we need to achieve. I did exactly the same thing through growing a company. Once I established myself in the real estate industry, I helped real estate agents have good businesses that kept on using the software. That’s what I did. What’s changing right now is for me, not much at all. How do I help? I’m helping other people grow their businesses. It’s all I’ve ever done. It’s that method of, “If I help enough other people achieve what they want to achieve, I’ll achieve what I want to achieve.” It’s interesting. You say you saw that because that’s a methodology that I’ve had forever. I got taught that though when I went from being a salesperson to a sales manager. They didn’t teach me how to be a manager, but I called on to that philosophy of helping other people achieve their goals so I could achieve mine.
I adapt to that very fast and it makes sense that together as a team, we achieve so much more than what I could on my own. As far as helping people goes, it’s so good. When you have someone write back to you and say, “I’ve changed my business model because of the conversation we’ve had. I had this epiphany moment.” You know they’re doing things smarter and better than they were before. I love that light bulb moment. It’s almost like a drug or addiction.
What I tend to find in terms of when I meet people that have been very successful in whatever area that they’re in, oftentimes there’s a story behind that in terms of, as I would call it, your past is your power. Oftentimes there were struggles or challenges that help them to get where they are. I’m wondering from your own perspective, if you look back on your success and how you help people, are there any of those challenges that you look back and say, those are things that shaped you?
The disadvantages that have the seeds of advantages and your real character building comes from those downtimes and the disadvantages and the things you didn’t want to go through. He didn’t say I cheated. It’s not uncommon to have a poor upbringing or multiple dads and single moms. That’s common. I had that and I wasn’t very well educated. On the wall, I had my school report cards up because it shows how much I failed. My baseline was very low. I already came from a position of disadvantage. Everything for me was outside. I always had nothing to lose by having a go. When it came for downturns and times and periods that I didn’t like, it was still way better than where I started. Even though I learned from those and I didn’t want to go through those, I wanted to be smarter and better than being in a position I was in. My upside, whenever you have a downtime or a bad period, if that’s as low as it’s going to go, it’s still not too bad. You can still bounce out of that. I started like that. For a sense, it was like cheating. Now I look back, I was so lucky that I started with such a low base. Everything was upside.
Let me ask you a question along those lines. Who was the first person that you can think back to that said you’re meant to do more? Generally, there’s one of those people minimum that somebody said they saw something in you that they said you’re meant to do more.Help other people achieve their goals so you can achieve yours. Click To Tweet
I’m not sure who that was. I know in the insurance game I was getting paid to do it and he practiced what he preached. He was teaching me to be a better manager because they helped me be a better manager and helped him achieve his goals. That succession planning came down. That was a guy who taught me a lot. A lot of the things I talk about because of what I learned from him, but I’m not sure he said those exact words to me. Nonetheless, his actions and what he did for me, was he as a leader or a mentor of mine? He helped me get through a lot of the struggles I was going through. Whether that be real struggles or team management struggles or leadership struggles, he helped me get through a lot of things.
He told me the term called mental judo, which I then rephrased into business judo. He taught me the term mental judo and I’ve never forgotten some of these things that he taught me as a mentor. From 2002 until 2019, we hadn’t spoken to each other that whole time. In 2019, he reached out because of LinkedIn and all of a sudden we’re in conversations. I go, “Do you remember teaching me that?” He goes, “No.” “I remember.” He probably tried to teach it to 10 or 20 other people, but I got it. Other people probably got other things, but he had a profound effect on me. I can’t even tell you when that was, what day it was, what year it was, but I do remember learning lots of things off that one person. I’m not sure he said anything to me in the effect that you said, but he certainly did believe in me.
He did believe in me enough that I managed to create enough belief in myself to be able to go forward and having people like that in your life. Sometimes it’s from some weird people. I’ll give you a brief story about how I started the company ReNet. I got introduced to Amway as everyone does. I was out seeing friends. This is 1999. I was out seeing friends going, “Join up with Amway, do your own shopping and create a network.” This guy is an accountant. He was someone I looked up to and he said to me, “Scotty, what you should do is start your own.” I went, “That’s a much better idea.”
I wasn’t ever going to start an Amway or a multilevel networking marketing or whatever you want to call these products or services, but I realized, “I could probably create a system and a business and sell it to people for a reason and trying to get people to book do their own shopping,” so I did. I then went on that journey in 2000 of creating my own systems and my own product and company, if that makes any sense. One person came in with one thing and it might’ve been a throwaway comment to him, but it’s amazing I picked up on that one comment and years later, I ran with that comment. He probably should’ve done the same, by the way. That’s another story. I took his advice. He should have taken it because he’s still working. The point is that it’s amazing where you can get this advice and motivation and mentorship from if you’re willing enough and open-minded enough to learn from other people.
I will often use the line, “I think leaders are learners,” and I think leadership is in many different ways. I believe that when we’re open to those things, we’re in a situation right now, where we’re in that same thing. There’s a lot of struggle out there. Their resources can be scarce for individuals, but resourcefulness is something that we all have equal access to. I think that’s what will make the differences. You decide what you are going to do with what you have no more than you saying, “I’ve got my report cards framed. This is what I had to work with.” Your resourcefulness allowed you to work around whatever stuff wasn’t there or you didn’t think was there. Part of your background is very interesting to me because I started out in firefighting going through the academy. I noticed when I went on your site, that’s something that you still stay active in. I’d love to hear, from that perspective, how you think that training plays into other aspects of your life.
It was about 2003 and it was this massive bushfire. I thought, “I should volunteer because I can.” I’m working from home. I went down to the fire station because I grew up in the fire station down the road. I said, “I’m happy to come and volunteer.” They said, “No, you can’t volunteer anymore. It’s a paid job.” I went, “I don’t want that job.” I did nothing with it. I knew guys from the fire station. I was in the surf club, Surf Lifesaving Club, and things like that. I wasn’t enjoying that as much as I should, so I got out of that. The guys from the fire station said, “Come and join. Come and work.” In the end, I did. I get paid $30 a week to be on call and we get $30 a call, but what is good at that? He said, “It’s a profession.” They give us training and we turn up because we’re obliged to. I liked the business side of it. It’s not volunteer and it’s not full-time. It’s somewhere in the middle. We’re on demand. To be honest, when I first did it, it was like a release. I could go from when I walk in the office to all these questions and all this responsibility as the company owner to going to the fire station because of a bushfire and someone else telling me what to do.
“Scott, can you put some water on the hot stuff over there?” “Yes, sir. No worries.” Off I go. I didn’t have to think. I can be helpful. I can give back to my community. I can do all these good things. It was like a release. I put a different hat on. I learned so much about that mindset in a completely different field to what I was doing as far as an entrepreneurial guy or a business owner. It’s a completely different mindset when you work for a government organization. It’s almost paramilitary organization because it’s all about how long you’ve been there for, you’re senior already and all these weird things I never had in private enterprise. In private enterprise, you work as a team. In fact, the people sometimes below you are more empowered than you are in certain situations. That doesn’t happen like that in paramilitary drop.
Everyone is in a pecking order and it goes from the top down. It was good to have that experience and exposure. I learned a lot of things about leadership and a lot of ways things work completely different in private enterprise to say the public service sector or that paramilitary. One, it was good to give back. Somehow, they are putting path fires, house fires, bush fires, ambulance assists. I was getting a lot more back with knowledge and leadership skills and training and some of the things I do completely different to what happens in private enterprise. It was good fun. I still enjoy that. I’m still in it. I still do it. That’s good.
I noticed that. I saw the picture and I was like, “He’s still doing it. That’s great.”
In a sense, it’s a side hustle. It’s something I don’t have to attend to. If I’ve got work on or gone on holidays, it’s not my job. It’s just the side hustle. It’s like being in the Surf Lifesaving Club. It doesn’t run your life. It’s a part of your life and something that you’re into. It is good in the way that they have all their training and their organization skills. If things aren’t done right in the fire brigade, people lose their life. Things have to be done in an orderly fashion. Whether you like it or not, if the boss says to you you’re doing it this way, it’s because if you don’t, it could harm someone. Someone could lose their life. A completely different mindset with leadership in that organization as to in private enterprise when the boss says, “You need to do it this way,” you can question it. In the fire brigade, when the boss says do it that way and there’s a house on fire, you do it that way.
I think about it in terms of from a team perspective. You have each other’s back. You rely on each other. There’s a huge amount of trust that you develop as a group.
It’s important people understand that teamwork. You never go out on your own. You always go with someone else. That might be so I can support them or it might be the reverse. It might be me they’re supporting. If I’m in a smoky environment and I sprained my ankle and the fire is getting close, I need someone to drag me out. I’m going to do the same thing for my team. You’ve got to pass the baton and communicate. I’m going to go over here ten meters and look at something. If he doesn’t come back, you know where he is. This renegade thing and going off and doing your own thing, it doesn’t work in that environment. In fact, it’s life-threatening in some situations. You can’t do it. In private enterprise, people can tend to want to do things like that. Whereas in the fire brigade, you can’t. You have to work with teams and you have to communicate or else there are repercussions and way worse than just, “You didn’t tell me that.”
It doesn’t work that way. It’s proper teamwork and proper leadership skills and getting along with each other. In the heat of the moment, knowing that we’re not going to talk lovely, jubbly talk. We’re going to tell each other facts and get on with it, so we get out of this cycle. Then we can all do lovely jubbly, have a beer or a coffee or whatever. In the heat of the moment, let’s do the right things. Let’s work together as a team. Let’s back each other up and let’s get this situation dealt with as quick as possible.
It’s interesting as we transition over, that was one system for success in that environment. You have a whole other system that you said you took it from somebody else, but I think it sounds like you brought this to life for more people to be able to benefit from. I was wondering, could you speak to that model so that people can understand the power that’s in there?
I never planned on retiring. That was never part of my mindset, but when I sold the business, I did it so we could expand and grow aggressively and de-risk. Not because I wanted to retire, but I didn’t see eye to eye with the new owners. Long story short was I didn’t see eye to eye. I decided I’m finished. I’m out. I’m going to be financially independent. I never need to work. I don’t need to deal with this new owner. What started happening was people started asking me to share the story and teach them stuff. The reality was for the first few months, I was lying in bed in the mornings because it was weird when I had this business, now I’d sleep until 9:00 in the morning.
I never used to sleep through the night, let alone through the morning. I was lying at bed going, “What’s weird is that I had these specific business goals I wanted to achieve, these systems I wanted to create with the company. I didn’t even have a product, but I had the systems.” I didn’t know it was going to be a real estate software company, but it had to ring true with these systems. I went, “That’s amazing I managed to pull it off.” When I retired, people started asking, “What were the systems? What was it that you did?” I went, “Here are my Scotty-isms.” I thought everybody knew these techniques and these philosophies. It turns out they didn’t. I thought, “I’ve got to trademark this.”When you work with a team, you need to learn how to communicate, or there will be repercussions. Click To Tweet
I went through the process of registering some business judo, leveraging and collaborating and dealing with adversity in a win-win situation. That’s a business mindset. Time duplication was another one. Time duplication is the one thing that every successful business person understands. Whether that’s through leadership, through product, through wealth creation, time duplication is something that every successful person understands. There was the rule of 100. I understood this methodology of products and staff and clients go through this rule of 100 principles. There are the first 100 seconds. The first 100 minutes, the first 100 hours, the first 100 days, the first 100 weeks, and the first 100 months. Everything goes through these checkpoints and it’s perfectly normal for someone after 3 or 4 months, 100 days to pivot and change. You go, “That didn’t work. I’m going to change.”
That happens in staff. It happens with clients. It happens with the products. Everything goes through that 100 seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years. Not 100 years. I don’t think I’ll live long enough to see that one. That’s the point. Everything goes through these pivot points, but I knew all this before I started reading it. I knew all this before I decided to leave and start a company. These are all things that I understood and sugar and creams and other good ones. Sugar and cream, I can chase all the creamy staff or you can go and chase all the creamy clients or you can find all of the staff that are sugary and the clients that are sugary. A little bit of stirring, a little bit of knowledge, and all of a sudden they become good staff. They become good clients. They just needed a little bit of stirring.
A lot of people go looking for the cream when there are many good people out there and many good businesses and many good staffs you can employ that aren’t the creamy ones at the top. It’s people looking for that opportunity or that next thing. I always went with the sugar and cream model. The last one was the business. I understood that 1 in 3 years wasn’t going to be good. I understood that 1 in 3 products wasn’t going to work. I understood that 1 of the 3 sales wasn’t going to come along. I understood all these things with the business at thirds model, that there was going to be a third of the things that were always going to work out well.
I couldn’t predict those. It was going to be 30 things that were never going to work. There was a whole bunch of opportunities in the middle third, which went either way, depending on how I handled the situation. That could be staff, product, profits, and everything. Business of thirds, those are the five philosophies that I now teach people in more than 30 seconds each about how to grow their businesses. These aren’t things for, “Here’s your 100-day ClickFunnel.” These are the things they’re putting in place for 2021, 2022, right up to 2030. If you follow these five things for your leadership, for your sales, for your business model, you can’t help but have success.
The one thing that I’m thinking about right now, I’d asked you, who was it that said you’re better than this? You were doing that with the sugar and cream. It sounds like you’re finding people that you believe in them and you’re saying you can do this and riles people up.
It’s a conscious decision. It wasn’t until I retired that I can look back and go, “Those business philosophies, they worked.” I knew they’re working because I was using them, but it wasn’t until you stopped the end of a football season and look back at the football season and go, “What worked and what didn’t work.” I got to finish a career and look back on that business journey. I went, “Here I am. I’m sitting now with a journey that’s ended at 46 years old. I’m happy that all that stuff worked.” I don’t even know if it would, but that was a philosophy as how I built the company. I didn’t have a product, by the way. I had to find a product.
I took six goes. The sixth attempt. Five failed, sixth worked. That was ReNet in 2002. I went 2000, 2001 trying to find it. In 2002, I had to establish it. It wasn’t until the end of 2003 that I started knocking on doors trying to sell it. Nearly four years that journey took, but I had the systems. I just needed to create the product and find the clients for that product and have the systems work. It was no overnight success. These systems are things to put into place for longevity, not for this 100-day ClickFunnels thing you might see somewhere to make $100,000. Maybe you can, but that’s not the point of what I’m doing. The point of what I teach people now is the systems in your business work. You can rely upon your systems in uptimes and downtimes.
I think what’s interesting about that is we live in a world where things get photo-shopped so much and it’s six filters before we put a picture out on Instagram or whatever. It’s not the real thing. I think it sends the wrong message to people thinking, “Scotty did it. It’s got to be easy.” The first time it doesn’t work in our favor, we’re like, “That doesn’t work.” It works. It’s just you didn’t give it the time it needed to work.
That’s where the rule of 100 comes into it. You talk about the real thing. I started doing videos because when people started asking me to talk and I got asked to speak the Google Startup Grind. All of a sudden, people are going to start asking me to do booking. I started doing videos, so people knew who I was, so people understood how I spoke and what I believed in. I started doing all these videos for that reason because I didn’t want to turn up and have this, “Scotty is such a good entrepreneur,” and turn up and go, “I didn’t realize he had no hair. I didn’t realize he had an Aussie accent.” I do. I’ve got all those things. I started doing videos for those reasons. People can get the real thing. To be honest with you, the other reason why I do videos a lot in written material is because I’m not very good at English. My school report card, like I said, I’ve got it on the wall behind me. Out of 71 students, I got 70th. I’d beat one kid in my highest school certificate. It’s funny, I was on a podcast and someone wrote to me and said, “What happened to the kid that got last?” I said, “I don’t know. He’s probably in jail.” The quality of the kids in that class, there were about a dozen of us, it wasn’t very high. I was one of them.
It doesn’t matter what you know, it matters more where you want to go. If you’re one of the sugary people, you look at all these creamy people think, “They’re so wonderful. They’re so good.” Now you become the sugar. Find that bit of stirring. Listen to a podcast, watch a few videos. There’s Tony Robbins’ CD set that I listened to in the ‘90s. I went and paid $400 for that thing in the ‘90s because I wanted to improve and you can too. Become the sugar yourself. Become that bit that stirs you up and gets you going to the next level. A lot of people get disorientated because of the creamy people or the appearance of creamy people. They look like they’re having all this success, but you can do that too. You can be a normal person and have above normal success. There’s no doubt about that.
I think also you can find out that some of the creamy people, it’s not that flavorful in terms of their cream. My oldest son, who’s graduating from college, I said, “Once you’re out of school, nobody walks around with their diploma saying, ‘This is what I’m worth. Pay me this.’ It’s irrelevant.” At that point, you decide what you’re going to do in terms of success. That’s not going to earn it.
You’ve got to be the sugar. That will stir you up and willingness to learn and open up and not be the cream sitting on the top, thinking you own the world. It might be an element of that. To tell you the truth, the sugary people are the ones that succeed.
To me, that’s around emotional intelligence. I would take emotional intelligence over IQ any day in terms of being able to connect with people. If I do that in the right way, I will find people that want to help me out as opposed to me saying, “I’m the smartest one in here. I’ll figure it out on my own.” I’ve never been that person, so I wouldn’t know what that feels like.
Patrick, I can introduce you to two new terms that you’ve never heard before. What was the topic of this show, by the way?
The podcast itself is re-imagining leadership.
This fits into it. Two terms that you will have never heard before. One is RPD and one is CPD. RPD is what people get in the business world and CPD is what people get in the sports world. Let’s imagine here’s Johnny. He’s gone through his sporting life as a teenager and his student years. He’s top of the sports and everything else. He gets to 18, 19, 20 years old, whatever it is, and he started at a thing called CDP, which is Car Park Disease. He’s top of the game. He’s on top of the world and everyone’s patting him on the shoulder saying, “You’re so good. You’re awesome.” He spends more time in the car park talking to everybody talking about how good he is. That could be the car park talk.It doesn't matter what you know. What matters is where you want to go. Click To Tweet
Instead of doing all the things that got him to where he was, all that natural talent is now no longer. He’s becoming the cream. Here’s this other kid. Johnny was that guy, but here comes Paul. Paul, who has that grip and that determination and never gives up. He was never in the newspaper like the other guy. He was never on top of the podium like the other guy, but all of a sudden, he’s 23, 24. He makes the main game because of determination, because of the fact he became the sugar. He didn’t get Car Park Disease. He kept that grit and determination going. That is self-leadership, that is being able to be self-led through all the trouble times and having to watch other people up in lights, knowing you’re as good as them. You just need that lucky break. That is self-leadership.
The other thing in the business world is we tend to get this thing called RPD, which is almost the same, but it’s in business. What’s RPD? I’m glad you asked. It’s called Rich Person’s Disease. In other words, the same thing happens. They go out and get a little bit of success in business. Let’s use real estate as an example, because I came from that industry after twenty years. They go out and they’ve had a bit of success. They’re selling a few properties and all of a sudden they go out and buy the Mercedes Benz or the luxury car. They stopped going out and talking to people every day, which is how they got the success in the first place.
Driving around them and he’s been stopping at the coffee shop, stopping at the car parks, talking to everybody or buying his or her Merc’s and a boat. They’re getting a bit thing called Rich Person’s Disease. They’re not doing what they did to get them to where they are or to continue that momentum. They’ve stopped being sugary themselves. That self-leadership, like I said, it is a disease and it’s called Rich Person’s Disease. It’s better to have those Mercedes Benz is if you like. I have nothing against Mercedes, by the way. What I’m talking about goals. Those goals should stay in front of you at all times to keep you driving and keep you sugary so you can keep stirring yourself out and driving towards success instead of arriving at success.
The worst one isn’t Rich Person’s Disease. The worst one is ARPD, which is Almost Rich Person’s Disease. You’re almost thinking rich and you’re spending money you don’t have. You’re spending next year’s money this year. You’re spending future money you haven’t even made yet. You’re not doing the actions that got you to where you were. There’s self-leadership principles and self-leadership diseases. Car Park Disease and Rich Person’s Disease. It’s the same disease, but one’s in sport and one’s in business. I know you haven’t heard those before. It’s important for that grit and determination to stay there. It is important to have that for yourself. You don’t all of a sudden float to the top and become the cream. You keep that drive and that ambition to keep going.
As a real-life example of that, I lived in the house I bought in 1994, which was the same little, three-bedroom fishing village house, all the way through buying investment properties and everything else. All our friends who were renovating and doing improvements and buying bigger houses. I said to my wife, “There’s no way I’m going to be paying for this house twice. I worked hard to pay for the first time. I’m going to invest so someone else pays for my house the second time.” I invested the whole time while everyone else was going out and buying things. I’m not saying I had Rich Person’s Disease, but what I’m saying is I stayed focused on keeping things real. I still had grit and determination and goals in front of me. I can turn up to work every day and still have a future to look forward to and goals to achieve rather than getting Car Park Disease myself or Rich Person’s Disease myself. It’s a self-leadership thing rather than anything else.
I’ve seen that the same things around the funnels and some people that might work, but what you’re talking about is about earning the slow growth over time of how you build that momentum. I think that in the long run is a much healthier way to do it. When I hear people say, “That person is self-made,” none of us are self-made. Self-motivated, yes, but not self-made. We need other people. We can’t do it alone. You couldn’t have run your successful businesses without other people helping you along the way. We’re not self-made, but self-motivated. It’s something that I think is the separator.
The techniques of how you keep yourself self-motivated. That’s that self-leadership that I’m talking about. Before you can lead others, you need to have that self-leadership. Self-leadership is so critical to the actual component. I have System 1357 and one is about you. You need to be the best you can be or else you can’t lead other people. You can’t help people achieve their goals unless you know what yours are. You can’t do anything unless you’re here and you’re in the right mindset and frame set yourself. Being the best you that you can be is critical to leadership of other people.
That’s your system. System 1357, that’s your thing. As I’m thinking about people that are struggling out there, I immediately think of that. Thinking that that’s an opportunity for people. A proven roadmap for people to say, “I look at this from a standpoint of there might be many people out there that don’t know what they want to do next or are saying I want more but what I’ve been doing isn’t working.” It’s an opportunity to take a look at what you’ve put together and say, “What if I implement this? What if I do this? If I have that self-leadership to be able to do it, where can I go?” It’s almost like hitting the reset button for people.
System 1357 isn’t like, “Here’s a blueprint and here’s a ClickFunnel process.” It’s not any of that. In fact, I probably can’t help people start a business in a sense like a friend that said to me, “You should start your own.” He didn’t say you should go and start ReNet. What he said was, “You should get these systems and create your own.” I had that epiphany moment. It took a few years for it to come through. System 1357 is about those systems that can help you create whatever it is. You can be in the hospitality industry. You can be in the entertainment industry. You can be in the car industry. You can be in any industry you like and you can still implement these systems to grow your business and achieve your goals. That’s what it’s about.
My point to that though is that this isn’t a get rich quick or here’s the quick take on this. To me, this is about somebody that says, “Foundationally, maybe I can rebuild something that is durable here.” As I look at your system, that is something that it provides.
The reality is a lot of people like what I teach around the sales and getting some business. A lot of people respond to that, which I enjoy because I can have a profound effect on people tomorrow from what I teach now. I also am very aware that we’ve got to have the ten-year goal. Part of the seven is about time management. Where do you want to be in 2030? What business, family, lifestyle? What does ten years look like for you? Let’s go back ten years ago. How much money have you made in the last ten years? What do you have for that? If you’ve made $1 million in the last ten years, what do you have? If you made $100,000 a year for ten years, what do you have?
If you’re going to do the same thing in the next ten, what are you going to have? It’s important to have that long-term as well as the short-term. “I need some business tomorrow.” Yes, correct. You want some people saying yes to your products or services so you can achieve your goals. People respond to the techniques I teach around sales, but long-term, who do you want to be and how are you going to get there? What’s the vehicle and its systems? Systems you implement in your business that make the biggest difference. The best system company in the world is McDonald’s. They don’t sell hamburgers. They have a system which is people get to buy the hamburgers and that’s how they make their money. Their systems for training, teaching, serving, delivery, and marketing. They have the best systems in the world. Arguably, someone else could probably bring up another person. Amazon’s got some of the best systems in the world nowadays. Systems work.
I have appreciated this conversation, especially around that. I think it’s a great way to segue into if people want to reach out to you and learn more about this system and get involved in it, how do they do that?
System1357.com or you can follow me on LinkedIn as well. I put up a lot of free content. I share a lot of information, a lot of experiences, but if you want to get it now, you can go and subscribe to System1357.com as well.
Thank you so much for that. I started to go on it. I had registered for it. There’s so much information on there that it’s well done. You’ve done it, so it works. Thank you so much. I’m wishing you all the best. I appreciate your time. I’m glad we were able to connect.
Thanks for the readers. This is self-leadership opportunities so, well done.
Scotty has such a great background. I love his System 1357. I think it does provide so much power and ease of following for so many people that are looking for ways to elevate themselves. The fact that he talks so much about helping other people to get what they want that in the end, when we do that, we do get the things that we need by helping other people to get what they need. If somebody you think would benefit from this episode, I ask you to forward it to them. If you haven’t subscribed yet, it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe and also leave a rating or a comment on this or any other episode. That’s how this message around re-imagining leadership and finding a better way continues to get out there. Until our next episode, I hope you’re able to rise above your best. Peace.
Words have weight in regards to what is said and when it’s said. In this episode, Patrick Veroneau is joined by Dr. Andy Young of the Lubbock Texas Police Department as they talk about Dr. Andy’s second book, When Every Word Counts. They discuss the challenges police officers face and the tools and skills necessary to address these issues. Learn the importance of listening as Dr. Andy gives an overview of the training he provides for the officers within his department. Get a deeper look into the area of crisis negotiation and the value of every word when handling a crisis.
Listen to the podcast here:
Lubbock Police Officer Dr. Andy Young And When Every Word Counts
My guest is Dr. Andy Young. He is a police officer for the Lubbock Texas Police Department. He’s also the author of two books, Fight or Flight and When Every Word Counts. His last book, When Every Word Counts, is the book that I interviewed him on this show about. What’s interesting about this is that this interview is prior to the unrest that’s going on as it relates to George Floyd, who was murdered by a police officer in Minneapolis. What is interesting about this episode is that it provides another face in regards to the challenges that police officers face and also the tools and skills that are necessary. If we are going to address this continuing crisis, it is about developing a better skillset. In this case, it’s around listening and how important that is. What you’re going to know in this show is Dr. Andy Young talks about the focus that he puts on the training that he provides the officers within his department. I know you’ll find it valuable so let’s get into it.
Andy, thank you for taking the time to be on the show, reimagining leadership. I happened to get a post of your book that’s come out and thought it was such a great opportunity to have you on. A lot of your work is in the area of negotiation and conflict. We’re certainly in a place of crisis for many people. I thought it would be a great opportunity to have you to come on, talk a little bit about your background, how you ended up where you are, and then go into your book.
I appreciate you having me. I’m happy to share a little bit. My background is in counseling. I went to school to become a mental health professional and do counseling in an office. One day I was minding my own business, going to church and the chief of police secretary came to me and said, “Andy, I hear you’re working on your counseling license. How would you like to join the Patrol Division of the Lubbock Police Department and help officers with domestic dispute calls that they’re going through? The chief is sick of sending his officers to these domestic disputes over and over again. He wants to get your mental-health types in there so he can get his officers back in service and do what they’re trained to do. Would you like to become part of the Patrol Division of the police department?” I thought that was the coolest thing I’ve ever heard. I was like, “Sign me up.”
That was back a little before 2000?
It was the summer of 2000.
I will say that your chief, that’s pretty forward-thinking to come up with that idea.
It was born out of frustration more than anything. He only had so many guys and they can’t arrest people for what was going on at these calls. In a moment of desperation, he’s like, “Let’s get some counselor people in there so my cops can do what they were supposed to do.”
How did that go?
It’s going well. The program’s still going. I have about 35 mental health professionals who will respond to calls and requests from police officers to show up at their scenes. We probably have 200 calls for service a year. It’s not medic disputes. It could be domestic violence. It could be a death, any call where an officer thinks, “Having a mental health professional or a grief counselor here that might be helpful.”
In your line of work, I know you do work with the fire department as well. Years ago, I was a firefighter first starting out. I remember if there were events that could be very traumatic having to have an outlet to be able to deal with those things.
I was at the Lubbock Police Department for less than a year. We had an officer killed in the line of duty at a SWAT call-out where one officer accidentally shot and killed another one. It devastated the department. At that time, we were then trying to put together mental health services for police officers, especially after a traumatic event. It was trial by fire.
I can only imagine. Many of my good friends are part of the Portland Police Department, where I am here. They deal with a lot. There’s a lot of traumatic incidents that go into suicides, drug overdoses, domestic violence, or seeing kids that are abused. It’s tough.
Law enforcement see that 1% of society that most people don’t believe exists and they see it over and over again, it takes its toll.You have your work, you have your friends at work, but you also got to have a normal life. Click To Tweet
This brings me to a question in terms of that, I imagine much of your work is around that. How do you help to separate that? I see that 1%, but I don’t become jaded that everybody’s like that?
I get to speak at our Police Academy to the new officers and families coming out on the street. My advice to them is you have your work. You have your friends at work, but you also got to have a normal life. You have got to mitigate that 1% with being at home with your kids, doing normal things, going out and not being on duty, not being on guard, but you’ve got to fight to be a normal person because you get enough of that in the work.
I was a volunteer for a group up here called The Center for Grieving Children, which was all around families that had lost a loved one, not children, but it could be adults that lost a spouse. The whole point of that was the importance of being able to talk about it.
Cops are not inherently open. When I started, walking around the police department, everybody knew, “There’s the mental health guy,” and the nonverbals were outstanding. They would rather I be somewhere else. Showing up at these calls, showing up at SWAT call-outs, and doing the same work that they’re doing, that opened the door. They’re like, “This guy knows what we go through. If I need to talk to somebody, I’ll sit down in his office and talk to him. I don’t have to get him up to speed on what we’ve been going through.”
It’s amazing to me. In this observation that I’ve seen is much more and I do a lot of work within organizations around emotional intelligence that there’s more openness to emotional intelligence and understanding self-awareness and awareness of others. One thing that stands out when you talk about being able to discuss these things is, we know so much more about the research now in terms of the impact that has when we’re able to verbalize things. It reduces our level of stress.
I had an officer who was in a traumatic incident right after I started. He came and sat down in my office eighteen years later. He said, “Andy, I knew I needed to talk to you way back then, but rah-rah I can get through it.” When he came in and finally talked it all out, it was amazing to watch how curative that was.
Do you have many females that are part of the department? Is it easier for them to come and have those conversations?
Not necessarily because sometimes we eat our own, sometimes there’s that personal friendly fire, and being a female in law enforcement has its added layers to it. I would say that they’re on guard as well.
You then became an author. This is your second book. The first is Fight or Flight. Now this one, When Every Word Counts and the subtitle is An Insider’s View of Crisis Negotiation. What prompted you to start writing in the first place?
I’m going to these calls and for my own personal benefit, I started writing them down because it was traumatic stuff. After a number of years, I had a big old stack of stories and I’m a teacher at heart. That’s my day job. I thought, “It’s been therapeutic for me to write these down. It might be helpful for other people to hear these stories too. They might learn something about law enforcement and what goes on behind the yellow tape. They might even learn some things that be helpful in their own life, be it like crisis intervention or grief or whatever.”
That first book was born out of my own therapeutic effort to write the stories down and then the teaching effort to, “Maybe this will help other people, let me write it down and let me publish it and see what happens.” The second book, our negotiating team has been busy since the first book came out and I’m like, “I got to write these stories down.” Some of this stuff you can’t believe and I’ve been speaking a lot of negotiator conferences. To be able to put something in their hands that they can take home and hopefully use on their calls. That’s where the books came from.
I love the title of it, When Every Word Counts because so much of my work is around that too of words have weight in some regards of what is said and when it said. I would imagine it means a little more in your line of work, in terms of the difference between a success and further crisis.
Patrol officers have their mentality about how to control a situation, fix the thing and command presence and all that stuff, which is the opposite of my training, which is listening, empathy, and tree-hugging. For an officer to shift gears from one to the other when it’s needed, that’s where it starts. An officer will come in and say, “I need you to put your hands behind your back,” and to switch from that to, “Maybe we can sort this out together.” Two different ways of trying to get to the same thing so there you have the title.
I will relate this back to an office setting where you might have a manager that has the authority to tell somebody what to do. There’s also a skillset to get somebody to want to do what you’re asking them to do. You’re going to end up in the same place, but if you can get them to want to do it, it’s going to be a lot easier on everybody.
Can I tell a story from parenting that makes the point?
My wife has the command presence thing. She says to my 8-year-old and 5-year-old, “Get your stuff, we’re going to go to the park. Get your shoes on, we’re going to have a good time, go get in the car.” My 8-year-old and my 5-year-old lose their mind. They throw a fit and they run off crying. She looks at me and she’s all frustrated, “I’m trying to help. I want everyone to have a good time. I’m trying to be good.” I’m a jerk. I turned to her and I winked. I said, “Watch this.” I yell across the house to my eight-year-old and I say, “Ella, what do you think about going to the park today so you can do what you want to do like go ride your bike?” The crying stops. She says, “That’s a great idea, Dad.” She runs and gets her shoes on. My wife looks at me like, “I’m going to stab you.” I winked at her again. Jonathan loves a good time and he wants to be with other people. I said, “Jonathan, Ella is going to go to the park. I bet she’s going to have a good time. Do you want to go with her?” He’s like, “Yes, I want to go have a good time too.” My wife almost killed me.
Along those lines when you’re out there now and helping other people in this area, what’s the most important thing?
A few things come to mind so if I could give you a few important things. It starts internally when I show up to a crisis, if I’m freaking out and in crisis too, that’s not going to help anybody. Calm is contagious. If I’m cool, then maybe that’ll affect everybody else. It’s not about talking. It’s about listening. If people believe that I understand them, if people believe that I have empathy, if I don’t have an ulterior motive other than to be here with you to help, that sets the stage for trying to sort our way through something.
When you talk about showing up and I can’t be panicked or agitated myself because that’s going to come out, I will often hear people speaking in ways that if somebody is in an agitated state trying to talk slower and softer to try and bring them down as well.
We like using the phrase, “The late-night DJ voice.” To have a tone of voice that’s a sedative might start getting things going in the right direction.
It’s not going to work every time.
If you’re absurd about it, people will catch you speaking and think you’re an idiot. You don’t want to do that either.
You’re in the wrong line of work. Maybe it should be a DJ.
It’s like, “Have you been smoking pot? What are you doing?”
You mentioned listening as well. In the work that I do, I will often say, “Listening is a superpower.” If you understand how to listen to other people, a lot of the conflict that we run into can resolve itself.Calm is contagious. If you're cool, then that'll affect everybody else. Click To Tweet
One of the first things is not to be thinking about what do I want to say in response, but how do I understand what is being said and say it back to somebody so they know I understand too.
You hit on such an important point. If you can, why is that so important to not be thinking about what am I going to say next?
You’re already talking to somebody who has something to say and is thinking about what they want to say next. If we have two people doing the same thing, we’ll probably end up missing each other. As a marriage and family therapist, I see that all the time. You have two people who are emotional, who want to be heard and they yell louder.
That’s where I’m in full agreement that oftentimes hearing somebody and listening to somebody is not the same thing. If we’re suspending what we want to say next and trying to listen to somebody else, you’re probably hearing some things that you would have missed.
People notice when you are suspending your agenda and your needs in order to listen to them so you’ve already given them something.
It lowers it. I know my own experience, you can generally tell when somebody is listening to you or they’re not listening or they’re humoring you listening to you. It’s not the same thing. Oftentimes it amps it.
When a cop shows up to a call and he wants to get the information so they can write a report and go onto the next thing, you wonder why he’s getting in a fistfight.
The person saying, “You’re not appreciating my side of this, what I’m going through right now.”
I’m afraid. I’m hurt. I’m angry. I don’t want to go to jail. It’s a quick way to get everybody amped up.
How do you work with the people within your department to help them develop these skills? You could have people out there saying, “I can’t do that. I don’t have the skillset to do that. Where do we even start with that?”
I get to teach our 40-hour mental health police officers certification course. Those officers who want to do that will come and sit down for 40 hours and learn these things. I ask them, “Try this on your calls. Try this with your wife. Try this with your kids. Experiment, come back and tell me what happens.” When they give it a test drive, they come back and they’re like, “My fifteen-year-old said, ‘I’m sorry.’ What is this wizardry?” That’s where it starts, experiment with it. I’m not trying to change your mind. I’m trying to give you tools for your toolbox.
Which that in and of itself disarms individuals because it’s not you trying to force, you have to do this. This is the way to go. It’s to say, “Here’s an opportunity to improve what’s in your toolbox now.” If there was a better solution to this, wouldn’t you want to know it?
Of course, the problem is there are people in my field who come in and like, “I’m Dr. So-and-So and I have the authority to tell you what to do.” That’s the quickest way to shut down a cop. They don’t want to hear that.
No more than your line of work or my line of work, you can run into people that think, “I don’t need this. I’ve been doing this long enough. I get by the way I am right now.”
Keep what you got and let me know when it breaks down.
In the book, you talked about stories. Is there one that stands out for you that you’re looking is maybe most gratifying for you in terms of a situation that you dealt with?
There’ve been a number of cases of talking to somebody who is suicidal and contemplating their death in an immediate fashion, be it jumping off a bridge or something like that. Some of those conversations, one lasted two hours, one lasted seven hours, for those to be so close to death and then for that person to make the decision to come down. We continue to talk to them. I’ve talked to them after the fact. There’s the immediate gratification of, “I’m so glad they didn’t make that decision.” Over the long-term, you get to see people change their course and many times improve their lives. This is tremendously honoring to be a part of that.
If you look at those things on those people that didn’t make the decision that was going to go against what you were there to do, is there a theme that you would think flows through in terms of what made it successful?
It’s exactly what we’re talking about here. They can’t see beyond their pain. Somebody shows up and gives them something that the other people in their lives should have been able to give them, respect, understanding, time, patience, and caring. We show up and do that because we indeed do care and that starts to cure things. It’s quite simple. In our society, when things get horrible, those are some of the first things to go.
Specifically, talking about listening, are there certain things that you work with those individuals to help people to understand? How do you build this muscle? I believe listening is a muscle. How do you help people to strengthen this?
There’s the practice and having the right mentality going into it. Another key point, especially assisting officers with this, is to listen for emotion. Police officers aren’t typically listening for emotion, but when I come at you and I say, “I can’t believe this was going on.” I’ve shared my emotions with you. For me, to get out my finger and say, “I need you to back up.” That’s the exact opposite of what’s going to settle this down. If I say in a nice, calm manner, “I see that you’re very angry. Can you tell me what’s going?” It’s a different approach if somebody’s coming at me in anger. People respond in kind, “I’m angry because so and so.” Now we’re grooving.
There are so many parallels between in your world or in an office setting where you might be dealing with an employee that’s completely agitated, upset or angry about a situation and to have a manager or somebody say to them, “With what you know or with what this situation is, I’d be upset myself,” or “I can see why you’re upset.”
That manager has a choice at that moment. I can be here for the job or the institution or whatever. I can be here for this person who is in front of me and try to navigate it from there.
It’s a great point too, if you think about this. We’re all in this together. We have different roles that we play, but in a sense, we’re all human beings trying to figure this thing out.
I may work for a company and go, “Yes, I can see why this rule makes you mad, but here’s the other side of the coin as well.” That’s sorting it out thing as opposed to authoritarian. You need to suck it up and smile.
Another thing in terms of what I hear you saying and it probably doesn’t happen the same way, but on some levels is asking people their thought. You did it with your kids. If you were in my shoes, how would you want to be addressed? What would you do about this?Negotiation is not about talking, it's about listening. Click To Tweet
Respect and honoring people’s autonomy don’t cost us anything. To recognize that and respect it, that is such a great starting place if you’re trying to assist somebody who’s having a tough day.
One last thing, in terms of challenges that you run into, what’s the biggest challenge for you in terms of the line of work that you’re doing?
It’s people who are in extreme psychiatric distress. You have somebody who is homeless or they have troubles going on at home. They have a diagnosed condition like bipolar disorder, major depression, or a psychotic disorder. They’re on drugs. They have schizophrenia, they have an alcohol problem or a drug problem. It’s not that it’s easier, but when you have multiple layers of difficulties to sort through that’s many times why it takes seven hours to have a conversation.
You hit on something would be important in terms of awareness of others and teaching that is because how do you help people to understand or be able to decipher what’s going on here? Is this person having a psychotic episode? Are they diabetic and they’re having a diabetic incident? They have low blood sugar. That is in different situations.
It reminds me of a story if that’s all right. State troopers had a driver pulled over on the highway and they’re yelling at the driver, “Get out of your car.” The driver is not getting out. They’re like, “This is a tactical situation.” They call in more people. It’s amping up. The driver is sitting in the driver’s seat, hand on the steering wheel, eyes forward, not moving. They’re thinking, “This guy’s disobeying. Maybe we need to go on hard and fast. Maybe we should send in the dog.” We’re like, “Let’s slow this down.” They walk some people out behind ballistic shields and they try to talk to the person. The person is a stone, looking straight forward, hands on the steering wheel. They hold up a dry erase board and they write on it, “Please talk to us. Please come out.” The person slowly turns their head. They read it and they do sign language. The person is deaf. That is why they’re non-responsive. They’re scared. We knew what was going on. It wasn’t my story. Once they knew what was going on, “This person is deaf.” It changed everything.
One of the things that you said in there was let’s slow things down. You need to do that. There’s reacting and then there’s responding, which takes that what else might be going on here, which to me is part of listening? It’s not with our ears, but it is a form of listening where we’re listening besides what our gut is.
The difficulty in law enforcement is what situation do I have here? Is this lethal and I’m about to get killed or do I have the latitude to slow it down and talk?
To me, that was the question on that is to say, “That can be difficult.” Who’s to say which way this is going to go to be able to work that muscle? How do you develop that?
You’re looking for opportunities that are clearly safe to do so. You gain your experience and you get better at-risk assessment, then you know when you need a hammer and when you need to listen.
Andy, I’ve enjoyed this so much. What you’re doing is important. If people want to reach out to you certainly get your book, what’s the best way to do that?
I have a website for my book and it is DrAndyYoung.com. I’d be happy to sign a book for you.
I appreciate all that you’re doing. Especially in the times that we’re in when we talk about stress and crisis, I’m sure your skillset is even more needed.
I am very busy. I still enjoy the work after many years. ER docs are the same way. I love being an ER doc, but I wish I didn’t have to do this.
Thank you for your time. Wishing you all the best. Have great success with the book.
Thank you very much. It’s been a pleasure being here.
We are certainly in such high-tension times. Dr. Andy Young outlined some very important things around how we listened to other people. He speaks about it from the standpoint of professionally his career in trying to reduce the anxiety and high tension that they might be experiencing and how to do that. I truly believe if more people were to develop these skills, a lot of the conflict that we experience would resolve itself. I don’t think that’s a Pollyanna approach either because what tends to happen and as he said in his conversations, is that oftentimes people need to feel heard. When that doesn’t happen, oftentimes bad things come from that. If you know somebody that you think would benefit from this show, I would ask you to forward it on to them. If you haven’t subscribed yet, please go ahead and subscribe. It would mean the world to me if you would leave a rating or a comment regarding this or any other episode. Until that next episode, I hope you were able to go out there and rise above your best. Peace.
About Dr. Andy Young
Andy Young received a bachelor’s degree in Bible from Lubbock Christian University in 1993, a masters degree in Youth and Family Ministry from Abilene Christian University in 1995, a masters in Community Counseling from Texas Tech University in 1999, and a doctorate in Counselor Education from Texas Tech University in 2003. He has been a professor at Lubbock Christian University since 1996 and currently teaches in the undergraduate Behavioral Sciences Department and graduate Nursing department. He has also taught in the graduate Counseling and undergraduate Bible departments. He has worked with the Lubbock Police Department since 2000 and the Lubbock County Sheriff’s Office since 2008 and currently serves on the negotiating teams for both agencies. He also serves as a clinical director for the Critical Incident Stress Management Teams for the South Plains Regional Response Team, the Lubbock Police Department, and the Lubbock Fire Department. Dr. Young is a founding member and current coordinator for the Lubbock Police Department’s Victim Services Crisis Team, which has now grown to 40 members. He has many published academic articles and speaks frequently on crisis intervention, and has spoken at many state association of hostage negotiator conferences. He married his wife, Stacy, in 1995 and they have two young children.
Finding the right balance between having a powerful and demanding career and a great private or personal life is challenging on different fronts. Sabrina Runbeck works with professionals with demanding careers like healthcare to overcome stress and feel powerful and passionate again. In this episode, she discusses with Patrick Veroneau the effects of the pandemic and working from home in both our performance at work and at home. Sabrina also touches on what it’s like to be a Millennial and clears up the misconception that most have towards them regarding how they view their respective professions. Listen in for some great tips and strategies on developing habits and learn all about the key components of life.
Listen to the podcast here:
Sabrina Runbeck Discusses How To Balance A Powerful Career And A Great Life – Episode 102
My focus is on finding a better way to lead. That’s by helping individuals develop the behaviors that will inspire, empower, and compel others to follow where you’re asking them to go. If you’ve been struggling at all with how to balance a powerful career with a powerful life outside of your career, then you’re going to want to know my guest, Sabrina Runbeck. She is a healthcare practitioner. She’s also a speaker and a peak performance coach. Her sole focus is around this mission of trying to create an environment where people, especially healthcare professionals learn to love their career, but also have a powerful life outside of that career. Why don’t we jump into it?
Sabrina, I want to thank you for being on the show. Your background is varied and important for the environment we’re in. I was looking forward to having you on. You’re an advanced practitioner in cardiothoracic surgery, but you’re also a peak performance coach. Both of those in terms of your focus is with professional Millennials and trying to create balance, especially for healthcare individuals and females in healthcare. The balance between having a vibrant career, but also a balance between life outside of that. I think that’s important. I was wondering if you could talk to that.
Thanks for having me on the show, Patrick. Years ago, I was the typical person who’s always on. One day I was operating with a 101 fever. I wondered how could my childhood passion of working in medicine and living this American dream has turned into such an unhealthy reality. To tap that off, when I called in sick the next morning, my manager made me feel like I was inconveniencing him. Fast forward a few weeks, I treat a young man in his early 30s. He has two kids and a wife, and he required his fourth open-heart surgery. He had failed to report some new symptoms that he thought were small and insignificant. That’s when I realized that I had these small and insignificant things in my own life that I need to address before I too become a patient. At that time, I was in the mindset of “I have to say yes.” That becomes a default mode, “I got this, I can do it.”
When we say yes to many things that do not align with our core values, who we are, who we want to be, and how we want to show up for people, then we become resentful. We’re unable to deliver quality results or keep our promises with our family, friends, or even everyone who we want to work with. I believe that many young professionals who are working in areas that they are passionate about just like me, share similar struggles. I then dive, head in and went back to my roots of neuroscience and public health, and learning from other peak performance and personal development coaches on how can we turn this thing around. We all worked so hard to get to where we are now. We didn’t do it just to hate every moment. We simply give up and jump ship to something else. That’s when I came up with a simple three-step system to say no to stress and say yes to stamina.
Is that the quiz?
I have a free three-minute quiz and that focuses on the ten different components that are important in life. I totally believe that for you to have a life full of heck yes, we need to be more conscious about our strengths and weaknesses, then we can remove these hidden roadblocks and excel in life.
How did you come up with that?We need to be more conscious about our strengths and weaknesses, so we can remove hidden roadblocks and excel in life. Click To Tweet
There are many different studies on what are the important things that people have in life. This wheel or a circle of life that people divide to either four components all the way to twelve components. For me, the key ten components are lifestyle, how do we want to live and what do we possess? Personal mission, what are your true purpose and value in this big wide world? How do you want to serve and show up? We have love and relationship, the most connections and the drive. Someone we rely on and someone relying on us. Social support, people who are not your family but simply trust you, believe in you, and you can also do the same for others. The next is career development. For some people that become the number one or the only thing they focus on.
You have financial intelligence, which has nothing to do with your career development. We can do things that we love to do that make zero money but give us satisfaction versus you can pick the career that can make you stable but you have a lack of fulfillment. You have spirituality. It doesn’t mean it has to be religious, but it can just be knowing the energy, how you’re drawing and manifesting from everything around you. There’s health and fitness, and that includes nutrition. Lastly is the mental wellbeing. What I believe is that if we only pick 1 or 2 of these key components, and then we dive deep into that, and somehow unintentionally ignored everything else, that’s when things wobble.
I don’t truly believe that we can create balance for everything, but we can create harmony that elevates every single aspect of life because they’re so intertwined. If you don’t feel good physically, especially in this critical time with the Coronavirus, then you had to pull yourself out of work for two weeks. During those two weeks, you’re isolated. People might want to speak to you or they’re connecting with you, but how many people are proactive about doing that? Talking about physical distancing, we do have to increase our virtual connectivity in some other way so the social support or family support still feels like it’s there for you so you’re not alone or sick and bored out of your mind. That also comes into the personal character development part. If we’re not growing every day, that’s when you feel dissatisfied and bored at the end of the day.
You bring up such an important point, especially as we talked about the virus and social distancing. Social distancing benefits us for our physical health, but it is a liability for every other component of our health, mental, emotional, and spiritual. We need that connection. We’re pack animals. There’s a belongingness that we need to be connected. Even if you’re an introvert, you still need connection. When we don’t have that, it messes with people in a lot of different ways.
I don’t like the word social distancing because if you think about socializing, it means you’re here. You’re packed. You come together. It’s just a physical thing. You can still be in the same room 6 feet apart. If we couldn’t do it, think about how many of us healthcare professionals. What are we going to do? The people who are in the emergency room, urgent care, critical care were completely ganged up. You’ve worn your cap, your eye shield, your mask, your gown, even shoe cover and gloves. Just having all this doesn’t mean it protects you. You need to take all that out before you walk out of that room. One of my friends sent me a joke that says, “If you drive around seeing people stripping, that means the healthcare professionals are trying to protect themselves.” I’m like, “I guess that’s somewhat true.”
At the same time, we need to be smart about staying home if you don’t feel well. If your job allows you to work from home, which most of us are mandate to do that now then yes. Figure out a better schedule. What people are missing nowadays is when you go to work, they know what they need to do because someone else is also doing the work. You feel like you have to work and now you have a schedule. There’s a meeting. It’s lunchtime and we have to do X, Y, and Z. When they’re home, time goes wrong together because at least some people were not trained on how to plan out their day.
Some of the simple activity that I do with some of my clients is a visualization activity either in the morning or at nighttime. Allow yourself to imagine this perfect day that you’re going to have. What are you going to have for breakfast? Are you going to work out in the morning? When you show up for your meeting, how do you want to present yourself? Is that the enthusiasm you want to bring or the knowledge? You play around your whole day until the moment you go to sleep. You’re already allowing yourself to have a planning session without writing everything down. You preset your mind to this positive realm of things instead of sitting in there questioning, “What the heck am I doing?”
A time that is unstructured is a liability for a lot of people especially in this environment. I have often said that if you’re at home, get dressed just like you would if you’re going to work. Everything down to putting your shoes on, because if you don’t, you lose that sense of structure. We go to dark places oftentimes when we have too much time to think about the negative of what’s going on.
When you plan things out, it doesn’t have to be minute by minute. You can also plan out the intentional breaks. Part of the way that I train people is that we should allow ourselves to even take a 2 or 5-minute break. Those 2 or 5-minute breaks can be very intentional as well. I call them the stamina reboot session. That will allow us to subside the mental chatter and refocus and bring us back to the present. You can completely reset your energy so you can be more intentional about your life.
Are there any tools, apps, or anything that you use in regards to chunking that time? There’s one that I’m familiar with that I’ve used periodically called the Pomodoro Timer.
For us, every time you sit down, you set a timer for fifteen minutes. Our phone is super easy to use. The other thing I used to do before the Coronavirus is that I knew where my schedule allows me to take that 2 or 3 times of a mini-mental break throughout the day. First thing in the morning before I go into the operating room, right after I come out, I’ll do one exercise. Before I leave work, I’ll do one, and then right after dinner, I’ll do one. I’m more intentional in associating the habit with the existing activity. Now I can trigger myself, “Two minutes, that’s it. Let’s reset so I can be doing these things.” For people who haven’t developed this activity, you can preprogram the timer into your phone. When the timer goes off, especially if you’re not on a call or a meeting, drop it. Allow yourself and give yourself grace and empathy for that moment.
You’re talking about it from the standpoint of what you’re doing is you’re developing habits though to do that. Part of our conversation is that we all have the ability to develop these habits. What I’ve found interesting is I’ve interviewed people from different professions. A couple that I have found important, and I’d love your perspective on this. One was a fighter pilot that was talking about stress, crisis, and training for the habit, so that when you’re in that situation, that doesn’t hijack you. The other was somebody from the armed services in the Army. It’s that same thing. He was on the front lines of saying, “We practiced and practiced so that when we were in these situations, we were able to still operate.” I think of you and you must be in that same space. I think you can provide a lot of value to people of saying, “How do you deal with stress so that it becomes a challenge and not an overwhelming burden?”
When we talk about stress, that initial sensation with stress is healthy because they alert us. It becomes unhealthy if we hold on to that emotion of frustration, anger, pessimist, whatever comes with it. When your emotion starts to replay itself, then we get trapped into that negativity. However, if you have learned to reprogram yourself, once you notice and you recognize it, it’s almost like you recognized it from a third-person perspective. Now you can do something about it. That trigger becomes healthy for us. Let’s say, simple things, you’re at home with your kids. The kids are running around when you’re trying to run a meeting. That irritation starts to come up. Before you react to speak to your kids about “Stay in your room, do your homework,” or whatnot, and even your dog. My dog is running around while I’m recording sometimes.
Instead of getting irritated right away, you recognize that irritation, and you start shifting yourself out. What my coach trained us to do is positive intelligent reps. These simple activities can use all your five senses. Visual is the hardest to train because we are so distracted by the things that we see. One of the easiest things for most people that I teach about is tactile or the touch sensation. You can also do smell, hearing, and vibration. In this simple activity, you recognize something that is not working for you, then you allow it to quickly shift into something positive to reprogram your neurocircuitry. You immediately bring yourself back in the center. Forgive yourself when you’re doing these quick exercises. If there are still other thoughts coming at you, it’s okay. Let them pass. The more that we practice these exercises, it’s easier to shift our mind right away, calm ourselves down, and then do something about that.When you say yes to so many things that do not align with your core values, then you become resentful. Click To Tweet
It sounds like a lot around mindfulness of embracing and being in the moment for it in some regards.
It is hard when you’re angry or upset. If you recognize that, then you can say, “I understand that my dog is nudging on me. She wants attention. It’s not that she’s trying to destroy my career.” What we can do is close our eyes. Tactile is very simple, and then you start doing your deep breathing. Count it in your head, almost like you’re entering that meditation state. We’re not doing a 10, 20 minutes. We’re just doing a quick break. Once you start doing a couple of central channel breathing, what I ask people is to start feeling their thumb with each fingertip and start feeling the texture, the temperature, the smoothness or roughness.
Focus on the sensation itself and bring your entire thought to this sensation, and allow yourself to drop everything. The thoughts that are not related to what you’re touching and feeling, let it pass. Some other ones, if you add on to the massage pressure point, you can simply comb through your hair because we have many meridians on top of our hair. You can do that if that becomes easier to bring into yourself or bring into the present. Once you do 1 or 2 minutes of that, before you open your eyes, set the intention on what do you want to do next, then give yourself a direction.
There’s a theme that I continue to hear. It’s this idea of setting habits when we’re doing this. A lot of what you’re talking about to me is around self-awareness too. You need to know that it’s coming. Just like if you were in the OR. If you’re on a procedure and something starts to go in a direction that probably wasn’t normal, there’s no panic in a sense. We know that this is what we need to do next, but that comes out of the habit of being in that situation.
What’s funny is that I brought that into my life as well. If something bad happened, I’m super calm. I dive directly thinking into solutions. I see the problem. I see what are all the possibilities, we can solve this. When things are small and if you let them go, then small things compound to bigger issues. What I tend to do is if I recognize something small, I nip them in the bud. What I also learned from myself is sabotager like, “Bring myself back to the positive state. Don’t get irritated by the small things,” because we can address small things so much easier than big things. If something frustrated you and then somehow, I ended up not reacting.
If I say you drop your phone from the second floor to the first floor. That initial shock is like, “My whole life is on there. I need to get this phone back and reprogram it.” That happened to me and my initial shock was nothing. I didn’t even react. I walked down and picked it up like, “The whole thing is shattered. Let me use someone else’s phone and try to get a screen replacer come to my house.” Maybe it’s weird because throughout the years I learned. In medicine at least at my specialty, things can happen like this a heart or lung surgery. If the surgery goes well, great. The recovery takes a lot more time and a lot more energy to get people off the vent, the machine that help people to breathe, and off the drips, all this medication to help your heart pumping.
Even if you can be off of all these supports, people still have to do the rehabilitation. There are also studies that have been found depression associated with open-heart surgery. You felt like your body is completely changing. Your mindset is you have to rely on people instead of how independent you were. That’s something I talk to people beforehand to address a lot of that. We can offer you surgery. We can offer you services like anything in our service industry, but what do you want out of this experience? Knowing everything has consequences and you have to work towards that, how do you imagine life being better? You won’t have a heart attack. We gave you an additional blood supply to your heart. Allow them to visualize that, and then it becomes more real. People can work towards that.
I had seen some research, especially around cardiac issues with patients, that those that were in support groups tended to be more adherent to following through after the fact. Are you familiar with that?
I believe so. I haven’t seen exactly all the studies, but anything in life, we talk about accountability partners. If you’re in the same boat, you feel like you’re not alone anymore. Accountability is not exactly that you hold someone accountable. It’s a relationship you have built to almost holding each other’s hands and make sure we’re all doing what we’re supposed to do, so then we can elevate each other.
It is true because when you hear the word ‘accountability,’ people tend to think of it as not a positive thing. It’s punitive if there’s going to be accountability. For me, it’s almost related more towards ownership. That’s what we’re talking about. It is about ownership. We’re all going to take ownership of our health or of where we’re going to go as a team, whatever it might be. To me, that’s how I look at accountability.
I think it’s true. It is a positive way. When we have a coach, that’s someone who’s accountable for you, whether it’s in sport, in life, in work, in business, or whatever we’re doing. It’s someone who’s also there to challenge you because they know you have that strength within you that you might not see it yourself. That’s also what true leaders are. They can bring out that energy and that skill within someone that they thought it was easy coming to them. All of us think this way, “How could you not know how to do this?” That shock is your jam. That’s the crystal that somehow you got and no one else got. Recognizing that that’s your strength and people rely on you to do that. That gave us more of that confidence to go into the next task instead of thinking, “Everyone wants a piece of me.”
You mentioned leadership and leaders doing that. The direction that leadership is going, there’s more and more of that. An old-style of what was seen as a leader was more about command and control, and not thinking about. It’s interesting because especially as a Millennial, we always hear this, “Millennials don’t want to work.” I can’t tell you how many individuals and family members for me that are in that state. I don’t know any that aren’t working hard and don’t want to do a good job and aren’t proud of what they do, no more than a Boomer or a Gen X or in that same group. It’s more of an indictment on leadership and lack of positive behaviors for leaders and not as much on the Millennial or any generation.
I totally agree with you because there are multiple studies out there that Millennials just like Baby Boomers and Gen Xers want to show up as an expert in our field. They want to bring positivity to the organization. What’s different is our tendency is different. Our personality is a little different. If you talk about personality studies, Gretchen Rubin has this great book called The Four Tendencies. I believe that a lot us are in that questionnaire tendency where externally, we need to question the reason, the purpose, the idea of why we’re doing something. It’s not to challenge the norm, but to simply understand it better. At the end of the day, if I’m the leader and I can be super clear about my purpose, then people will agree with me and more likely to help me to achieve that purpose. It’s like Start With Why by Simon Sinek. It’s the same thing. It’s purpose. If we don’t even know where we want to go, then who’s going to follow us? You will become someone who has no knowledge. It doesn’t matter if you have the title. If you don’t have a clear direction or idea, then people don’t even know what to expect or how they’re supposed to drive to that end goal.
I’m a Gen Xer and I jokingly will say at times that I was born in the wrong generation. It was always my downfall because I would be the one that would be like, “Why are we doing it this way?” Because they say that’s the way we’re going to do it. Even if that was the right way to do it, if somebody just explained to me like, “This is why we need to do it in this way.” Even if I didn’t go along with it or agree completely, at least I knew that I was part of this. There was, “This is why we need to go in this direction,” as opposed to, “You’re going to do it because I say you’re going to do it, because I have the title and I’m the leader.” I don’t think it worked then, it definitely doesn’t work now.You can actually address small things much easier than big things. If something really frustrates you, somehow you end up not reacting. Click To Tweet
I believe the questionnaire tendency, if you bring it to internal, we’re good about keeping ourselves on track. If we believe in something, we’re very good at getting things done. You don’t need to push us over and over again once you set that clarity. When people don’t do it, it is because they have no clarity in what they want or how they set their own expectations. Sometimes the hardest thing for anybody is they don’t know. What they’re clear on is what they don’t like, but they’re not sure what they truly want to do, like to do, or how they want their life mission.
There’s a quote by John Quincy Adams that I often use. He said, “If your actions inspire somebody to do more, dream more, learn more or become more, you’re a leader.” There’s no title. It’s just about actions inspiring other people. To me, that’s what it’s about. That’s what leadership is. It’s not that there’s only one type or only one person who can be the leader. It’s to simply say that there are many ways to do this.
I’m not sure if you read the book Multipliers. I love that one. It talks about the six different diminishers and things that sometimes we don’t even think about. If you are someone who always wants to solve a problem for everybody else, they’re not going to think for themselves. If you’re someone who has to micromanage, then people feel like they have no freedom to even show up and be the best person they want. Also, the people who said, “I have run ten meetings today. I got all those things done. How about you guys?” You feel almost fearful that you’re never going to catch up. These things happen over and over again in life and I felt like it is such a crucial topic to even notice.
I believe she has that quiz about what is your accidental diminisher. When I’ve taken those a while back and also matching what I’m trained to build passive intelligence, it’s recognizing the self-sabotagers. You can bring that out on a surface and truly recognizing how you’re being triggered. What’s the emotion affecting you? Now let’s shift into this exercise to reprogram your brain. As we talk about in the beginning, if you have something that upset you, that’s fine. You recognize that. You do this quick activity to bring yourself back to the center and in the present, then you can address the issue.
If we look at the work by Gallup around employee engagement whether it’s healthcare or outside of healthcare, about 2/3 of employees would say that they’re disengaged from the work that they were in. This can provide an opportunity for many people to recalibrate, “Where do I want to go?” If somebody were to come to you and say, “I’m not happy with where I am.” What’s the first thing that you would recommend to them?
I would recommend to write down three different columns. Get a blank piece of paper and create three columns. Number one, what was the initial interest that you have in whatever you’re doing now? That initial excitement and drive. That initial interest. In the second column, what are the things that you completely disagree on that does not align with who you are? The third column, even if it’s outside of your job description or how you think this thing should be, what can bring you more joy if you allow yourself to add an extra component into it? When you have three columns, how can you bring yourself back to that initial excitement? Now that you know what you don’t like, can you address it with people’s things or yourself to eliminate these things? How can you add additional things to allow yourself to feel better?
For me, when I was burning out and switching things up, I know I love to speak. I pick up to become a speaker and learn about how to become a proper public speaker. That third column is to learn from people who are on stages. I also know I love to teach. The speaking part aligns and I also love to teach students. I set up with three different universities to have students come to me for surgical rotation. It is on hold due to Coronavirus. I had medical, PA and PE student leading up to that point. Part of my public health background is research so I became the lead PA in my team to do research. We look at surgical result outcomes and additional ways to better educate patients, maybe a free activity so then they can reduce rehospitalizations.
You become more proactive about what can bring you joy and think about what got you into it. I got into medicine because I feel like a human body is super intriguing. There are many different ways that we can fix things, not just the Western medicine. There are also these other ways that we have done thousands of years. How can we integrate everything? The things that I’m not liking, it is what it is but how can I reduce that? Whether it’s the scheduling, whether to make sure everyone cares their own way, whether it’s, “When do you go into the OR versus other different components of your job?” It becomes more tangible and not like, “I’m not happy about it.”
It’s back in your control. We talked about this in terms of resources, you might not have the time now or whatever it might be, but you do have the resourcefulness to be able to figure out, “How can I work around that?”
Sometimes you just have to ask. If you have the idea, write down one sentence purpose statement so you’re clear about it. Whenever you talk to people, they will trust you. You become more fluent about your messaging. Share these messages. Someone is going to be aligned with your message, who you wanted to be, and how you wanted to bring this to the surface. People will help you. When you don’t ask, people don’t even know you have this idea. It would become something out of nowhere and then you probably have this thought. It could be great, but it won’t come to reality.
I love the three questions in terms of lining that out. That’s a great way to start. What’s the best way for people to get in touch with you if they want to work with you or learn more about you?
I’m very active on Instagram. Please send me a private message and also, on LinkedIn. Those are my two major platforms. For the free quiz, I’m generating three graphic analysis. I will also send you a voice message with the analysis on Instagram, private message, or LinkedIn. I’m the type who loves to talk. I think the best way to communicate is through a voice memo. Somehow, I hate reading text messages so that’s how I’m doing this.
That’s a great way to do it. I like that. Your list, there’s so much there in terms of helping people understand what component of this would be most valuable for me to work on.We need to question the reason, purpose, and idea of why we're doing something, not to challenge the norm, but to understand better. Click To Tweet
Thanks, Patrick, for having me. Thanks, everyone, for reading.
Sabrina had some great strategies and approaches to how you can have both a rewarding career and also a rewarding, gratifying and powerful life. If you know somebody that would benefit from this episode, I would ask you to forward it to them. If you haven’t subscribed, go ahead and subscribe. It would mean the world to me if you would leave a rating or a comment regarding this or any other episode because that’s how this message, re-imagining leadership and finding a better way, continues to get out there. Until the next episode. I hope you’re able to go out there and rise above your best. Peace.
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Asking questions is a natural part of life and learning, and in this episode, Mark Victor Hansen and Crystal Dwyer Hansen explains why this is the key to success. They discuss their new book, Ask! The Bridge from Your Dreams to Your Destiny, to raise awareness about the power of asking, especially during this pandemic. They also talk about the ripple effect a question has on people’s lives, especially with the learning aspect. Learn how answering questions honestly can show you the inner strength that will change your life. They also give an overview of the roadblocks of asking and how practicing gratitude daily can show you the things you’ve been missing that’s just in front of you.
Listen to the podcast here:
Why Asking Is The Key To Success With Mark Victor Hansen And Crystal Dwyer Hansen
Our guests are Mark Victor Hansen and Crystal Dwyer Hansen. They wrote a new book, Ask! The Bridge from Your Dreams to Your Destiny. Both of these individuals have been incredibly successful throughout their careers. Mark Victor Hansen is the co-author of the Chicken Soup for the Soul series that has over 254 different books in print. He’s also written dozens of other books coupled to note here, The One Minute Millionaire, as well as Cracking the Millionaire Code. Crystal Dwyer Hansen has written several books, herself, Skinny Life: The Secret to Spiritual, Physical, and Emotional Fitness and Pure Thoughts for Pure Results: How Messy Thinking Can Make Or Break Your Life.
What’s important about this book that we’re going to talk about is, we’re in a state in terms of a pandemic or crisis or however you want to look at this and that the ability to ask good questions of ourselves is the way that we positively find a solution to the challenges that we’re dealing with whether it’s the stress, the finances, the fear or whatever that might be. The better we are at understanding how to ask questions, the more equipped we’re going to be for navigating this challenge that we’re experiencing successfully. That’s what this book is going to talk about. Let’s get into it.
Mark and Crystal, thank you for being on the show. I’ve already had the opportunity to read your book, which I thoroughly enjoyed. Knowing both of you and how successful you’ve been in terms of the number of books that you’ve written, I couldn’t list them all, or we wouldn’t be able to do the show. From that standpoint, why this book and why now?
What happens is, Crystal and I have traveled everywhere. We’ve been to 80 countries. What we discovered was we’ve met a lot of wonderful people. They’re talented, educated and likable, but what we looked at and discerned was there’s a big difference between those who are little successful and those that are vastly successful. Those who are vastly successful have one skill level. They have learned how to be what we call master askers. We want everyone to understand that you could ask because success comes out of the progressive realization of a worthwhile goal. Learn to ask so you can get to your destiny.
Wasn’t it one of your grandchildren that started out with the idea of the question?
Yes, little Everett. We had kicked around the idea. We started mulling over this book that as we started to ponder the power of asking, particularly in our own lives, we started thinking back about how it’s influenced us and gotten us through a personal crisis and things like that. We had started forming our ideas for the book and we’d gone to Hawaii on vacation. Everett, who had gotten a GizmoWatch for Christmas and he only had five people in the watch that he could call. It’s his grandparents and his parents. It’s for his safety, but he thought it was cool. All of a sudden, Mark gets a call on his cell phone and it’s Everett’s GizmoWatch coming up. He’s like, “How are you doing?” He’s like, “I’m good Grampy. Can I talk to you about something important?” “Yeah, buddy. Where are you?” He’s like, “I’ve gone into the closet.” It’s noisy out there because everyone was celebrating for Christmas. He said, “You know those Chicken Soup books that you’ve been writing?” Mark said, “Yeah, of course, I do.” He goes, “I liked those, Grampy.” He’s like, “I didn’t know that.”
We thought he was too young to be reading the Chicken Soup books. We’ve never had this conversation and he goes, “Grampy, can I ask you a question?” He’s like, “Sure. You can ask me anything always.” He said, “Are you and Mimi going to write any more books?” He said, “Yeah, we’re in the middle of writing one now. We’re thinking of a book called Ask!” He goes, “Okay. Can I write that book with you?” We’re like, “Was this the perfect story?” No shame, no fear. He was serious. He had strong conviction, a lot of confidence, not entitled, but sincere about, “Could I do this with you?” It’s a great idea. It got us thinking and then we started doing more research about why our children are unafraid to ask. It’s because we all come into this world, Patrick, with that natural human spirit. We want to know what, when, where, and we want more and more, and we keep asking for it. It’s a beautiful thing and then over time with life, that gets crushed out of us.
We go to school. You’re told to zip it up by the teachers in charge. Don’t ask unless you’re called on. You go out in the world or you share your ideas or you ask for things and maybe you get rejected, embarrassed or shut down. With jobs, a lot of employers who are open to taking feedback or if you have too many questions, they are like, “Do what you’re told,” whether it’s your job or military. Over time, people lose their confidence in asking. They lose their ability to ask and it becomes crushed. We talk a little bit more about that in the book, in The 7 Roadblocks to Asking.
We do get it squeezed out of us. We hear many times about what we can’t do, “That’s a silly thought. Stop daydreaming,” or whatever it might be. I certainly remember that. When I think of this book as I was reading it and the stories were fabulous and to me, it’s a combination as I was writing down a Swiss Army knife, a blueprint, and an owner’s manual. What I mean by that is, it’s a Swiss Army knife in terms of asking. It gives you all of the different ways that you can ask. Anything that you need to ask for. To me, the blueprint of that is I made some notes is, whether it’s personal, purpose, relationship or health, those are the blueprints. The owner’s manual to me, was what gets in the way. Those seven things that you’ve listed, it’s almost like any appliance that you buy or whatever. You go to the back of it and say, “If I’m not getting what I need or this isn’t doing what it needs to do, what are the recommendations?” Those 7 Roadblocks do that. What’s getting in the way of me asking good questions?He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who doesn't remain a fool forever. Click To Tweet
I love every one of those little things that you hit, the Swiss Army knife, because what happens is all of us know the line, “Ask and you shall receive,” but nowhere ever has anyone written the book on ask. We were a little dumbfounded that we could get that title and take ownership of it and then we did this subtitle, The Bridge from Your Dreams to Your Destiny because we’re saying, “Patrick, if you’re alive, you have a destiny.” It’s probably not fulfilled and you’ve been incarcerated a little bit, which is government-imposed but when that release is, we’re saying, “What more important things to do is there than ask?” We’ve got Socrates and Socrates says, “The unexamined life is not worth living and the unexamined leadership was not worth having.” Leadership starts from top-down and inside out. It’s got to be self-leadership. You got to ask yourself, “What kind of leader am I going to be? What kind of person am I going to be? How am I going to take leadership in our family, business, life, spiritual and charitable role?” All of which we looked at and we said the few that make it our master askers.
You do outline that. One of the quotes that I had written down that I loved was, “He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who doesn’t remain a fool forever,” the Chinese Proverb. To me, that speaks to this.
Isn’t that true? It’s funny because we did a lot of research for this book and the studies show when it comes to asking others for things, help, insight or whatever you’re asking for, people are scared. The research shows that you’re 80% likely to get your request granted if you ask but we’re frightened of this. That’s why we need to study those roadblocks and identify which one or ones we have, which ones we’re carrying around because most of us have at least one or more of those. We use some beautiful stories, even in those roadblocks, examples of people’s personal journeys, because stories are powerful. They’ve become metaphors for our own lives. A metaphor is a pattern for our brains to follow. Our brain works in patterns. When we can experience something through someone else’s story, we immediately experience that metaphor in that pattern. We learn much more quickly through stories and the emotions of the stories too.
Everything we learn with the emotion create much stronger memory in our mind, but also stronger memory in our body. As a transformational life coach and hypnotherapist, I do this mind-stuff a lot, and it’s a real thing. We felt like it was important to include all these stories. We did 26 interviews for the book and a lot of research. It’s fun. The other thing we discovered about asking others and being a good question asker is those people who are better askers, in other words, in a business setting and they even did it in a dating setting are perceived to be more likable and intelligent. A better partner in general.
I love that when you were talking about the research that you’ve done for this because that was one of the things that I had written down was the Harvard study on asking and liking. How when we ask better questions of individuals, it creates an environment of liking. I do a lot of work in leadership and team development for organizations. That’s one of the things that we will talk about in terms of, we know from brain scans and images that people like to talk about themselves. The pleasure part of our brain lights up when we are asked questions to talk about ourselves. It falls in line in that research. I hadn’t seen that study either and I love that.
It’s important in that they also talk about listening to the responses when you’re asking questions and go deeper into that conversation. Instead of, “Patrick, where you’re from?” “I’m from Wisconsin.” “Where in Wisconsin? How many people are in your family?” Instead of going, “Where are you from?” “Wisconsin.” “What do you do for a living?” You want to go deeper into people’s answers. People feel that connection and trust much faster. That’s part of the whole asking journey. It’s opening up to one another more and being more curious about each other. In some ways, we talk about too isolated to ask and social media has us all superficially connected, but isolated with so much about, “Am I being seen or heard.” Not working on creating those bonds with other people that you create through asking and even granting other people’s wishes.
There were three things that you mentioned in terms of asking around clear communication, commitment to what you want, and then detachment from the outcome. I was wondering if you could speak to that because I think those three are important.
The three things are you got to ask yourself, ask others, and then ask God. What happened is when I went bankrupt in 1974, I hang out. I was sleeping in a sleeping bag in front of another guy’s room for six months and going, “I felt myself worth, my net worth with the shame and hiding undercover.” Finally, I figured out and I asked myself, “What do I want to do? I want to be a speaker.” I get to my three roommates in Hicksville, Long Island, New York. I say, “Any of you know somebody that young that’s not a doctor, a lawyer, a famous person, a celebrity that is making money?” “Yeah, he’s a few years older than you are. He’s in Long Island, New York. He’s talking. Here’s my ticket. You go and sit in my place. Tell him you’re me.”
I go out there and I go up to him. I asked him, I say, “Can I take you to lunch?” He said, “I love somebody to buy me lunch.” I said, “Can I ask you how to do this business?” He said, “You can, but you’re not going to make it. One in a thousand makes it. This is a tough business, kid.” I said, “Let me worry about that.” He said, “You stay out of real estate because I own this market in the five boroughs in New York. You do life insurance. I’ll tell you what to do, what to say.” I asked him and I wrote everything. I memorized it the next day I go out. Long story short, the first three years I did 1,000 talks a year because if you’re going to ask, the second thing is you got to take massive action, which is what you’re doing. Only Tony Robbins and I, as far as I know, ever did 1,000 talks a year. I do them at 6:00 in the morning, 10:00 in the morning, 2:00 and 9:00 at night. Whatever they wanted, I’d do it and then I sell in between and more talks.
I was alone. I had nothing else to do and I knew I wanted to do it. All of a sudden, I said, “They all say they want this story in a book.” I did my first book by asking fourteen people to cooperate with me called Stand Up, Speak Out, and Win! It went like a rocket. We sold 20,000 copies at $10 each. I made $200,000 in 1974. I thought I had the ride, Patrick, died and gone to heaven because they’re asking for my autograph. I said, “This is my bestseller.” It’s not the bestseller.” They all laughed and said, “What are you doing?” I said, “I’m asking you to buy one.” The first time I ever showed the book, I sold 37 out of 37 people in the room. I thought, “This is good.”
I wanted to follow up on that. That commitment and detachment and Mark has exemplified that in his asking journey to be an author because they did get rejected for the Chicken Soup for the Soul books, 144 times. You’re going to get a rejection. You need to understand that. You need to commit to what you want, to the asking journey, to yourself that you’re going to move forward and expect some rejection. We have a great story in the book of a guy named Charlie Green, who submitted it. He said that he saw Mark speak at a church in the Midwest. He said Mark gave this amazing talk and everyone was astounded.
He stands up after he waves this manuscript in the air and he said, “I’m asking you to pray for me that this book will get made.” He said, “We’re looking for a publisher. I’d like to ask for your prayers and I’d also like to ask you to fill out this order form and put your credit card down and I promise you when it gets published, I will send you the book.” Charlie said, “I was amazed that every single one of us did what Mark asked.” He said, “He was committed to getting what he wanted. We felt his passion, we felt his purpose and so we did it.” At the same time, you realize Mark had to be detached from the answers he was getting because with all those rejections, you have to detach. You have to say, “Keep moving, next.”
My background growing up, I was in sales. I was in biotech sales. Being the youngest of ten, hearing no was not a big deal. That’s something you deal with. It goes right off the other side of it and you keep moving, “Next,” and move on. I do think that’s a real struggle for a lot of individuals, one, asking a good question. What do you want? I know it’s been a struggle for me at times when I haven’t been clear in terms of what I want. Being able to ask a well-structured question in terms of what is it that I want?
It’s important to spend time with yourself. That’s why we say the first part of the asking journey is spending time with yourself, asking yourself, because you’d need to become clear. We all start thundering through our lives and we’re doing our routine day after day. Life’s coming out of us and we’re trying to keep all the balls in the air, but we’re not taking that personal time to ask ourselves. To do that deep reflection and ask those reflective questions that will reveal much to us about ourselves. The other research we did is, when you ask yourself questions, a different part of your brain lights up, and it’s a part of your brain that does critical thinking. Your brain goes to work for you when you start to ask questions. Question by question, answer by the answer, you’ll start to come up with a plan or an illumination or a solution will come to you, or a new idea that you hadn’t thought of before. That doesn’t happen if you keep powering through your life, doing what you’re doing and not being satisfied with it, you have to stop. You have to sit down and take those fifteen minutes minimum with yourself every single day.
We like the morning. We do this prayer and meditation time. We try to do an hour, but at the very least, if we’re incredibly busy, we get at least fifteen minutes and we’ll get up earlier to make sure we get that in because it’s that important. We ask each other question. We ask ourselves questions and we then contemplate and reflect and check-in with ourselves. We adjust. You have to adjust your course. The easiest way to do that is to ask questions. What’s working? What’s not working? Are we liking this? Is this relationship good? How would we improve it? What are the goals we’re trying to achieve this week? Are we even in touch with them? Asking those questions pulls you back into the plan.
People reading say, “Mark and Crystal can do it. They’re super successful, but I can’t do it.” Not realizing that most of the successful people that I’ve interviewed and talked to all have a similar story that they started out with some tremendous challenges that they overcame. I’m wondering for both of you, would you share one of those challenges for you that helps people recognize like, “You’re like we were. We can do that?”
It’s true, Patrick. It’s easy because we do think that we think when someone was successful, we look at them and go, “They had it easy. I wish I was like them. They don’t have the problems I have.” We’ve had tremendous challenges individually and together through things that we’ve had to work through. For me, one of the biggest personal challenges I ever experienced was when I was young. I was 21 years old. I was one of those kids who found high school to be easy. I accelerated my curriculum and graduated at age sixteen and married my boyfriend, who was five years older. It was not a great plan. Two and a half years later, I’m alone in a new city, divorced, with a baby on my hip, no job, no family or friends, and no idea what I was going to do next. It was a bad time for me. I came from this big pioneering family that is like, “You make your bed, figure out how to sleep in it.” I didn’t even think to ask my parents, come home and be all victimized. The only thing I could do was to think of getting food stamps.
I applied for food stamps and the day that I showed up at the grocery store for the first time when I received those food stamps, I was standing in the grocery store line, ready to turn those over and all of a sudden I had this huge epiphany and this question dropped in my mind and it said, “How did I get here?” Followed by a second question that said, “Are you doing everything you can to get out of this or are you taking the easy way out?” The minute that question came in my mind, I knew the answer. I wasn’t doing everything I could to get myself out of this. All of a sudden, I felt this intense conviction. I almost felt like this light was shining on me.If you can get real with yourself, you'll find a new strength inside of you that you didn't know before. Click To Tweet
As I was handing the food stamps over, I said, “This will not be my future.” I’m saying that to myself. I still remember that moment looking at the woman, thinking to myself, “This will not be my future,” as I hand those over to her. I went back to my tiny little apartment, where I was getting eviction notices every month. I started asking myself, “How can I work tomorrow? Where can I go to work tomorrow and start earning money?” I’d heard on the radio temporary service agencies like Kelly Services. I called them, they said, “Fill out these applications.” I did. They said, “We’ll send you job opportunities every day. You can say yes or no.”
I started getting some opportunities, then I realized there were two more temp service agencies that I could apply to. I did that because I figured I’d get a better selection of jobs to choose from. I started taking those jobs and I was working, filling in an attorney’s offices or setting up booths and malls or working in sales at conventions that would come into town. I started to learn something about myself. I learned that I liked business and I liked sales. I was good at it. I liked people and it was fun to be a part of a team or work with people. I love it. I decided to put myself through real estate school. By then, I saved enough money. I went to real estate school. In the meantime, I’ve been approached a couple of times by people who said, “You should go model.” I approached the modeling agencies and asked them if they signed me. Fortunately, the larger one in our valley said yes. I did a couple of television commercials and fortunately, they went national so I started getting residuals. After that time where I was turning over those food stamps, I was working for the biggest home builder in our valley and I became the number one realtor and I was getting my residuals.
I had to join the Screen Actors Guild because they made you do that. If you are making a certain amount of money in residuals, you joined the union, but they pay great benefits. My little boy and I got amazing insurance benefits. I reflect back on that time in my life. I did again and again. It would have been easy for me, Patrick, to cave into my misery because it was bad. I was crying on my pillow every night. As easy as this process sounds now, it was not easy. It was tough and scary and it would have been easy to cave in. That’s what I’m telling everybody out there. We can’t cave in to it when he’s there. It’s easy to cave in to. I know it’s hard, but I’m telling you to start asking yourself those questions. I’m thankful I asked myself the tough questions, “Was I doing the best I could?” No, I wasn’t. I knew it. I’m thankful that I was able to answer them honestly. Part of the question process is to answer the questions honestly when they come out and get real with yourself. If you can do that, your life will change. You’ll find a new strength inside of you that you didn’t know before.
One of the things that you mentioned in the book, and it might be the preface to it, but it says that, “The ability to ask questions, it’s the only language to which the universe can deliver a solution, understanding illumination or a plan.” It is what happened.
You’re reiterating that exactly. When I was nine years old, I didn’t quite understand that my lovely blue-collar parents, my daddy, and mommy owned a little bakery, but you don’t make any money selling rolls at $0.5. It isn’t in the cards. I wanted this little handlebar racing bicycles. They weren’t in the US yet, but now, a Trek bike is at $4,000 to $7,000. It depends on what you want and I wanted mine tricked out. My dad couldn’t afford it. I didn’t understand that and I kept asking and asking. He said, “When you’re 21, boy.” I got them down to sixteen and it wasn’t working. I thought, “I’m a Boy Scout and it says in the back of Boy Scout’s magazine, I can sell greeting cards in consignment. I can afford that.” They gave it to me, I sell them, send half the money and I’m home. I asked my dad, “Can I have it if I earn it myself?” He said, “Free enterprise, it means the more enterprising you are, the freer you are, son.” Never thinking that I could turn around that money.
I start selling and not far from you and the snow was deep that year outside of Chicago. The snow’s deep. I go up to my neighbors. I got a big fur mitt and a cold red face. I go wiping my nose and seeing this lovely neighbor lady, “I’m earning my bicycle by selling these Christmas cards. Do you like 1 or 2 boxes?” Most of them took two for $4. They were like, “I got to help the kid out. It’s Christmas time.” I sold 376 boxes of Christmas cards in one month. Did I want to sell Christmas cards? No. All I wanted was that bicycle and I got it. Dad took half that money and like, “Here, son.” I just graduated. I had to put it in my college fund because he couldn’t see how he was going to pay for it. He said, “You’re going to learn how to pay for it yourself.” I am thankful for those early sales lessons where my mom said, “Smile big and ask and you will get the business.”
It’s two examples of how this does work from an early age.
Let me underwrite what you’re saying though. It works for everybody who will work at it but nobody has ever written a book that we know of to inspire people, to use the only methodology that works. You start with no money. You don’t have to start with any skill. You don’t have to have any particular talent. You don’t have to graduate from college, but you have to learn this skill. Whether you’re educated or uneducated, whether they’re skilled or unskilled, talented or untalented, this will take you to wherever you want to go.
It is amazing as you read through this too, thinking of the environment that we’re in, this book couldn’t come out at a better time in regard to how people are experiencing things. I will tell you it doesn’t take much to turn on the news or read anything that’s been printed. The questions that are being asked are not good questions in terms of creating a positive environment.
We got this story in here by Jim Stovall. Stovall is nineteen years old and he spent his whole life running, exercising, getting bigger, strong and fast. He wants to be an NFL player. Sure enough, he gets recruited. He goes to the medical and the doctor comes back, shaking his head. Jim goes, “This isn’t going to be good.” He said, “Six months from now, you’re going to be permanently and forever blind.” Talk about crushing the kid’s spirit. You’re self-incarcerated in a little 9×12 room with only three things, a radio, television, and telephone complaining and moaning and his mommy says, “Jimmy, go to the blind meeting. Maybe they can help you.” It’s an echo chamber of negativity.
Fortuitously, he sets to a woman named Kathy, who is a blind stenographer for a legal court and they’re starting to chat. He says, “I used to love to watch somebody throw a right hook but I can’t see it anymore. I wish somebody would do something like that.” She elbows him and this is the lever for everybody reading. He says, “You all do what he and she did.” He said, “We’re somebody. Why can’t we fix this?” All of a sudden, the light bulbs went in at his head and he said, “Yeah.”
Long story short, they created Narrative Television. We don’t see it but fourteen million people pay $10 a month for a streaming service called Narrative TV. He then writes a book and that’s when I get introduced to him and I was amazed. I was selling 50 million books a year. I didn’t have time to look at somebody else, but I read it. I look forward and the backward and said, “This book is clear. It has to be a movie.” He said if he lives 100 years, he can’t thank me enough for writing that because it became a movie. It made $100 million.
We interviewed him for the book and he said the two last lines. He’s the wisest. I’ve never physically met him. I’ve never talked to him. He says, “I now write books that I can’t read and I now make movies that I can’t see.” If you take that and look at Joseph and the many-colored coat story in the Bible, it says, “What somebody else meant for your harm, God meant for your good.” Nobody wants to be blind, but he has made it an asset and a resource to his asset. We’re saying, all of us take crisis because eight billion of us are in crisis mode and turn it into a great opportunity like the yin and yang says. If you get the biggest crisis, you got to ask yourself, “How am I going to take advantage of this biggest opportunity and serve and fix something that needs to get fixed and get paid substantially for it?”
Do you think not enough people look at it in terms of practicing gratitude? Do you have something that you do in the morning in terms of your routines that you do?
You’re right, Patrick, and that’s what we do. When things are out of whack and we will do it even if we’re having a bad day, we’re like, “Things are getting off-kilter.” Our brains, especially in an environment like this, we have all this negativity. Everything’s bad. The news, the media won’t tell us anything but negative news and people are tuning in way too much because we’re all home listening. When we do that, it starts to shut us down. It is feeding our brains in a way that is the opposite of how we need our brains to be fed. When you want something in life and I know this as an expert in this area because I’ve studied the brain for a decade and a half. You need to tune your brain into what you want. You need to think of those thoughts every day. You need to envision a perfect outcome for yourself. You need to ask for what you want, but we’re seeing this negative, “This is bad and this is bad,” so people start like jam, hearing the echo chamber. “We don’t want this. We don’t have that.” You are inputting the opposite of what you want in life.
One of the quickest ways to change that is to go take some time, that quiet time and start giving thanks for every little thing you have. I am thankful I have a vision so I can see. I’m not blind. I have two hands, two arms and two legs. There are plenty of people out there who don’t. I have a great mind, I can think. I’m living in this country where we have freedom. I can create whatever I want. I can be whatever I want to be. Again and again, your family, your kids, and your friends. There is much to be thankful for because we start missing all that. The more we miss it, we’re like a magnet for what we have in life. We are the attractor field.
If you can’t even see what you already have, how is more going to come to you? You could get much more than you have right now and you still won’t see it if you don’t practice gratitude. The acknowledgment gratitude is the acknowledgment of every single thing you have. If we start with that, you start off by feeling rich then you can ask for more riches in your life. There’s nothing wrong with asking for riches. There’s nothing wrong with asking for abundance. It’s what children do. It’s what we were born to do with that human spirit that’s gotten squelched out of us. We need to focus on all the richness that we have so we become a great magnet to the things we want.
It feels like a dance at times where the expectation is, “I want more,” but gratitude is, “I’m happy for the journey and where I am in the moment.” It’s not comparing myself to somebody else, but it’s saying, “I want more things.” I’ll be motivated maybe to chase somebody else. I’m a runner. If I see somebody out there, I will try and catch them but I don’t go home deflated if I didn’t because it was like a rabbit for me. There’s a dance to it. There’s an expectation but there’s gratitude.You could get so much more than you have right now, and you still won't see it if you don't practice gratitude. Click To Tweet
We’re going to request everybody to shut down negative news to fifteen minutes a day. You got to know it, but the average American is listening 2.5 hours a day. The thing is when I went bankrupt and was upside down in 1974, fortuitously, I stopped reading the New York Times because I live in New York. All the bad news to the truth. All the things that are going wrong because news intrinsically, it’s got to be a crisis. If you start studying positive stuff, listening to tapes, watching art stuff on YouTube, all that stuff, listening to podcast, it gives you what Zig Ziglar used to call a checkup from the neck up.
One last thing is that there is not one crisis, but three. There’s a physical crisis. There are some ways out of that. There’s the fear crisis, which is what we’re trying to cover here and then the third crisis, the economic crisis. If you cover your fears, you’ll make them disappear. Like Napoleon Hill wrote on the Fireside chats, “You have nothing to fear, but fear itself.” He wrote it for FDR. If you confront your fears, you make it disappear. The only way we think it works is if you ask, so may I ask you boldly? We want to ask every one of your people to get a copy of Ask! The only bookstore that’s open more or less is Amazon and then sends a receipt to MarkVictorHansen.com, to Reception@MarkVictorHansen.com.
We’re going to have the biggest book club discussion ever. We thought that would be much fun because we love to get together. We want you to read this book and then we’re going to do a big private group, a big private Facebook group and invite everybody in. We will have this discussion and see how this applies in your life. We think that it helps people move forward and feel better. We’re trying to contribute as much as we can to help people move forward after this crisis and become the best they can be.
As you said, Patrick, we’re thankful our book came out of this time. It’s funny because a lot of publishers started postponing the release of all their books and we did have that discussion because ours was to release on April 28th. Right in the middle of the pandemic and we said, “What are we going to do? Are we going to postpone?” He said, “No. The horse has left the gate already. We’re going to plow forward,” not knowing. We swear, that’s the way God wanted it because we have done many podcasts. The feedback we’re getting from people is much gratitude for having this message.
I told you before we started this, that you were kind enough to send me a PDF copy of it to read prior to this. I bought the book and my son graduated this year from college and I’m given the copy to him. He had four years of formal education. This to me is a life education. When you’re talking about the pandemic and not potentially bringing this book out at this point, I think the opposite. This to me is a treatment. It’s like a therapy for what’s more damaging to us as a society. It’s what mentally is going on with us and emotionally and this book addresses that.
Thank you for mentioning that and we’re thankful. Honestly, I don’t know why ours came out, but we are giving thanks that it did because it’s the most important time it could ever have come out. Thank you for that.
Let me make your thought and macro-wise it or make it bigger if you don’t mind me to say that what’s true is that everyone should get all the academic education they’ve gotten. Otherwise, you got a good one and got to spend time in graduate school, the smartest, Buckminster Fuller or Einstein’s Best Students who read 40 books in geodesic domes and inventions. He was the Leonardo da Vinci of our time and said, “Let’s make the world work for 100% humanity.” That is academic education. What you said though, is it everyone’s got to have a self help action education so they become self-determining because 30 million Americans are not going to have a job when this is over.
I’m telling you that there’s a book that we’ll give you a free. If they go to MarkVictorHansen.com, we’ll have it up called How to be Up in Down Times. I teach seven businesses that are going to do $50 trillion in this decade. One of which we’re advisors to called a QCI in Michigan. The guy spent $300 million in twenty years figuring out how to take all garbage turned into a resource. He needs to hire 22 million people once Michigan’s governor releases people back to freedom.
It’s amazing because all of us create bipods of garbage a day, whether you want to or not. It’s what is. Every 10,000 landfills in America are full. We can’t ship it anywhere anymore. What he figured out, how to do is with every molecule, every atom turned metal back to metal, glass back to the glass, plastic back to plastic, and water back to the water. It’s exciting if you’re awake and the people have got to say, “I did that, but you might have to pivot. You might have to reinvent yourself.” You got to ask yourself, “How am I going to reengineer myself and revitalize myself to new leadership?”
You have to ask new questions.
I will say one last thing that reminds me of how do you take this and put it into action is I know that myself, I don’t want to be Peter Smith.
Isn’t that the most tragic? The brilliant genius guy. None of us wants to be Peter Smith.
That practiced and practice and had all the preparation, but never did anything.
All the education and the smartest guy in the world.
There are a lot of those.
Zig Ziglar used to say exactly at that point, “Someday I’m going to do.” There is no someday. There’s Monday, Tuesday, and there’s today.
I don’t know who said this, but I remember somebody else saying, “That person has a lot of potentials, which means they haven’t done anything yet.”
By the way, hitchhiking on that with your permission is that, nobody should be buried with their potential in them, their music, their books, their invention, their thinking in them and their love of their life and all that. It’s critical.Everything we learn with emotion creates a much stronger memory in our minds and our bodies. Click To Tweet
Like Rita Davenport says in one of the other stories in the book, which I love her story, “Get Your Ask in Gear!”
I want to thank you both for taking the time to speak about such an important book. I have appreciated reading it, having a conversation with you, and I’m certainly looking forward to sharing it with my oldest son too.
Thank you, Patrick. It’s wonderful to be with you.
Mark and Crystal have put together an incredibly valuable book. As I had mentioned, to me, it feels like a Swiss Army knife, a blueprint, and an owner’s manual for how you ask effective questions. That is going to be the key to getting out of this or to whatever challenge comes up, whether it’s now, in two years or in five years, it is about asking better questions. We all have the ability to do that and this book provides a structure to how you do that most effectively. If you know somebody that would benefit from reading this episode, I’d asked you to forward it to them. If you haven’t subscribed yet, please subscribe. It would mean the world to me if you would leave a rating or a comment on this or any other episode, and until our next episode, I hope you’re able to rise above your best. Peace.
- Ask! The Bridge from Your Dreams to Your Destiny
- Chicken Soup for the Soul
- The One Minute Millionaire
- Cracking the Millionaire Code
- Skinny Life: The Secret to Spiritual, Physical, and Emotional Fitness
- Pure Thoughts for Pure Results: How Messy Thinking Can Make Or Break Your Life
- Mark Victor Hansen
- Crystal Dwyer Hansen
- Stand Up, Speak Out, and Win!
- How to be Up in Down Times
Leadership is about inspiring, empowering, and guiding people. In this episode, Jim Bouchard, founder of The Sensei Leader Movement, joins Patrick Veroneau as they talk about reimagining leadership through a black belt’s approach. Jim shares his journey throughout the years and the lessons he learned in the school of hard knocks that transformed him from loser to leader. Jim and Patrick discuss the knocks that most entrepreneurs endure and the importance of resiliency that superstars in the space possess. Learn how Jim trained himself to be grateful and share his struggles to help his clients absorb what he went through and be inspired by his failures.
Listen to the podcast here:
Jim Bouchard Shares A Black Belt’s Approach To Leadership
My guest is Jim Bouchard, who aside from being an executive coach with his company called The Sensei Leader. He also runs Black Belt Mindset Productions, and has been inducted into The Martial Arts Hall of Fame. Jim knocked it out of the park on this conversation where we did explore what it means to reimagine leadership. Let’s get into it.
Jim, welcome to the show. I appreciate you taking the time and as I was going through your bio and your site, one of the things that stood out to me was this tagline that you had in there, “From loser to leader” and talking about your own story. I think it resonated so much with me and I was wondering if we could maybe start there and see where this goes in regards to leadership.
The whole adventure leadership started when I was a drug addict. It was in my early twenties. I was living in one of those old 1950s style trailers you see around once in a while with the heavy louvered glass windows and all that stuff, and a beautiful little plywood bumps out on the front duct tape to hold the windows together. That was a dark part of my life. I was up to about eight bong hits a day. For people who don’t know what that is, it’s a water pipe that you fill up with marijuana and the only cool way to do it is to smoke it right down, keep it yourself.
Then all the other drugs to keep the party going and to slow the party down. It was intense for a while. One particular night somebody passed me a joint. I didn’t smoke joints at the time because I couldn’t get high on that. It took a lot more than that to get me high. I bogarted and I took the whole thing for myself. I was always mellow when I got high usually, but something kicked in this particular night. I started running around the trailer, I guess I tried to dive out through the louvered glass windows and fortunately my friends got me tackled and calmed down a little bit.
Long story short, I woke up in the morning and looked in the mirror and it looked like I went through three rounds with Mike Tyson. I had made a mess of myself and that was the day I said, “That’s it. I can’t keep going like this.” It was a good thing we found out later on that that joint was laced with angel dust. It’s a blessing that I wasn’t dead or in jail so many times. Most of my friends were betting that I wouldn’t live past 30. I used to think that that was a lousy resume for somebody that worked in leadership and train leaders but I came to realize how useful it was because I’m sure you’ll agree.
The most powerful leadership we can argue with all the different styles and techniques are and whatnot, but it all boils down to a couple of things and transformation is one of the most powerful. I know they’ve coined that into transformational leadership, nothing new. Lao-Tzu talked about that 2,500 years ago. Who’s better to talk about transformation than somebody that had to learn it in order to survive? All the lessons that I learned along the way have a lot of resonance with people in leadership positions. The best leaders are transformational leaders. In fact, the best leaders are the ones that make change happen.
I’m sure for you that the decision was made then, but I’m sure it wasn’t a smooth trajectory up to success.
You might say that. There’s always ups and downs. If you want to make the dragon laugh, tell him your plans for tomorrow for one thing and we’re all feeling a little bit of that. I think part of the worst words we could ever say in our life is things couldn’t get any worse because as soon as you say that, it’s a good chance something else will come along that’s even worse. The trick is how do you keep pulling yourself back out of the fire. In martial arts, we had a saying, “Knocked down seven times, get up eight.” Sometimes I share that at conferences and people will say, “What happens if you get down knocked down nine?” I said, “Then you get up ten.” That’s what we need to do and sometimes it takes these hard knocks for us to learn that lesson. This is where we learned those lessons.
I think when we look back on these things, if you ask the most successful individuals, there were struggles. Those are the things that they often point to you to say, “Those were the turning points for me. It wasn’t everything going well. That’s how I got to where I am.” It generally is the things that weren’t going well that somehow you said, “This was the lesson I needed.”The best leaders are the ones that make change happen. Click To Tweet
I wish I could remember this study to share the attribute of it, but it was a study done some time ago of the highest performing entrepreneurs in the world. The central question was, how many times did you fail? We’re talking catastrophic failures, bankruptcies, living in a car, and these types of stories. Surprisingly, most of the top entrepreneurs in the world, the people that have built the biggest companies have had at least 4 or 5 major failures before they found the success that moved them forward. We hear the stories a lot about the people who were born with silver spoons in their mouths, but the superstars in the entrepreneurial world are the ones who took the knocks and kept coming back.
The other part of your story that you talk about is a two-time college dropout, which I think is interesting. You were an overachiever there.
It takes practice. I didn’t do it right the first time, so I decided I’d do it again.
You’ve written multiple books. You were inducted into the Martial Arts Hall of Fame in 2004. As we’re sitting here in this crisis, we have unemployment that is going to be at levels that we have never seen in our lifetime and it makes me think too, how many people think they are that loser for whatever reason that they’re spiraling down? To me, I think your story is important for people to say, “Here’s somebody that dealt with many challenges. You can do it too.” As you work with your clients and individuals and speak all over the world, how do you do that? What are some of the things that you would be telling somebody right now that’s in this space they’re struggling?
I always appreciate it when someone says, “Thanks for sharing that story. I’m glad you put some humor in it and you’re comfortable with it.” If they catch me after the presentation, I have to come clean. I say, “I’m not comfortable with it at all.” I said, “I’m ashamed of it.” Nobody wants to go through life with that label of a drug addict. The true regret of having lost about three years of my life to that episode is that I wasted how many years trying to repair the damage. I trained myself to share it with some degree of comfort and humor so people would be able to do absorb it, but we all got that inner loser in us.
There’re interesting studies that show some of the highest performing leaders, the best leaders are people who have a healthy sense of humility, and a healthy sense of vulnerability, uncertainty, personal uncertainty, internal uncertainty. It’s not to push that loser side of us or that loser feeling aside, it’s to pay attention to it. Shake hands with that loser side but we can’t get stuck there. That’s the problem. If we get stuck there, if we allow ourselves to get stuck there for too long, then we slip into a state of clinical depression. That’s how that happens. It’s a matter of taking stock of what we’ve got and that’s another part of the reason I share that story too, that I started to learn to be grateful at the worst part of my life and to be grateful for what little I had.
I remember one distinct time that I looked around, I didn’t know if I could feed myself that week and I said, “My poverty was self-imposed so I’m not looking for anybody to feel sorry.” Poverty is poverty. I looked and said, “Thank goodness, I have a place to live.” I had some people that were looking out for me. It started from there because wherever we’re going to go now, if you’re feeling like a loser right now, I understand. Believe me I have my moments. You and I were talking about this before we went on. A lot of our friends in the speaking world looked up and all of a sudden, their entire year was gone as far as work goes.
Even though it wasn’t our fault, you can’t help but say, “What the hell is wrong with me? How do I get started again?” One of the other things that I learned to help manage through a situation like this is that gratitude practice to take stock of what we have no matter how little it is, emotionally, spiritually, and materially, and then decide what’s the first step. What am I going to do from here? There’re so many opportunities in this. I’m talking about from living in a van and not knowing what I was going to eat that day to say, “What can I do with what I have and the talents I have and the skills that I have? How can I reapply them?” I think that’s important right now. There’s a lot of people that are looking at, “How do I repurpose the skills and talents I’ve had over the years.”
I’m not diminishing the pain. I understand it. I feel it. I’ve been through it before. Particularly people my age and older, you don’t want to start over again at 60, 70 years old but if that’s what we’ve got to do, then let’s look at the opportunities. Here’s another way to say it. I had asked the question, I’m sure you’ve asked this question too, “Who do you want to be in 5 years or 10 years, 20 years?” I remember this one woman caught me on that and she said, “Jim, you’ve been asking us. Where do you want to be in twenty years?” I said, “I have no idea but I can guarantee you that I don’t want to be the same person I am right now.” Let’s always be learning, growing, and changing. That’s one of the great lessons I learned from my martial arts masters. That was powerful.
There’s a quote that I have been using for about a decade and it’s by a gentleman named Eric Hoffer who was around in the ‘50s. The is, “In times of change, learners inherit the earth while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to inherit a world that no longer exists.” It is soulful because it speaks to what you said that leaders are learners. If we’re not learning, then we’re not growing. If ever there was a time we’re in change, this is it. If you’re not figuring out what things are going to look like going forward. Hearing your story, I think of resources and resourcefulness and that we all lack resources. We don’t have enough money. We don’t have enough time. We don’t have the right education, but we all have equal access to resourcefulness regardless of where we are.
That’s part of managing the uncertainty too. The world is changing. That’s what it is. Sometimes when things are going smoothly, we don’t notice it as much. We have this illusion of the status quo. Things are always changing and that’s why transformational leadership is so important as individuals and as leaders of organizations. If you’re not changing, you’re dying. That’s the way it is and a crisis like this brings it out.
You said something interesting in terms of shaking hands with it. When I think of that, I think of mindfulness. Being present and with stress to is almost sitting with it and getting comfortable in that space. I believe that’s what you’re saying, your training is probably all based around that. You face it. Gratitude for challenges. It puts the power back in you.
I caution people not to worry too much about the mysticism behind it because people can get caught up in the mysticism of these things. I was blessed to learn such practical philosophies through 30, 35 years in counting in martial arts. I was blessed to be exposed to some of the greatest living philosophers we have on the planet and amazing people. How not to be pollyannish and mystical about it? Take the gratitude thing because that’s one that people can dive into deeply philosophically. Think about it this way.
It is such a practical thing. What it is, is an inventory if you want to put it in the most tangible terms. You’re taking a look at what you have no matter how little it is because that’s what you’ve got to work with right now. It shifts your focus from what you talked about because we can obsess over what we don’t have, especially in times like this. I’m preaching from the gully, not from the mountain. Part of the blessing of this life is that as I’m sharing these ideas with people, I have to revisit them too and it helps remind me of what should I be doing and practice what I preach. This time challenges. I’m not lying. I’ve been joking with people because they’ll say, “Jim, don’t you ever get down?” I said, “I pitch some fit. I go behind the curtain so you can’t see it,” and I try to come back with a smile. I think that’s a good path for a lot of people in leadership, especially if you’re responsible for a lot of other people.
You said that wonderfully in terms of what we do if we talk about even going back to thousands of years, mindfulness has its origins I believe out of Buddhism.
I think all the great philosophies had it. They call it by different names. That was the path that I ended up embracing for a number of reasons. Part of the reason is because the teachers I had approached it from such a practical point of view. They didn’t trout it in mysticism. One of my favorite teachers, Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming. He said they weren’t trying to be mysterious. They were trying to figure it all out. He explained why a lot of these Asian philosophies in particular. It depends on the way people translate these things. They can sound so grand and so mystical and elite.
Dr. Yang explained from Asia, a lot of that has to do with the way we translate it because the language was poetic. It was lyric because they didn’t write things down. Most people couldn’t read or write. They were saying these things or they and recited them as poems. When we embrace it that way, it can get spooky. That’s how Yoshi says it, “Jim not trying to be spooky.” He’s right about that. All they were trying to do is figure it out and make sure that people could remember it. We’ve got to get past the poetry and look at the real heart of it, which is practical.
I’d appreciate your perspective on this. I think based on what you said, I’ve got a good idea where this is going but isn’t that the case with leadership in general? It’s that we’ve overcomplicated this. It’s not about the course on decisiveness and delegation because when we do that, I see it from a standpoint of organizations. When we make it, “This is complicated stuff,” it gives people an out to say, “That’s why you can’t do it. That’s why people don’t.”Get knocked down seven times and get up eight. Click To Tweet
That’s why we make that distinction between management and leadership. I always quote, Admiral Grace Hopper. She’s one of the brilliant philosophers we’ve had. She’s an amazing woman. She was the first woman who was an Admiral in our service in our Navy and she’s known. She invented most of the high-level computer technology or languages and stuff. The processes that we use now have evolved from her work. She said, “You manage things, you lead people and for too long, we went overboard on management.” She said that a while ago, but that’s still true. We still go overboard on management. Management is complex. Management is about dealing with complexity. Leadership should be painfully simple.
Those three keywords that we carefully picked as our flagship words, what does a leader do? I don’t care what your rank, what your title is because it has nothing to do with authority. You’ve got great leaders on your front lines. They have little or no authority at all. Let’s face it, in a crisis like this has exposed some. I’m not picking on anybody. I’m not waxing political, but there are plenty of people with a lot of power and authority that are lousy leaders. It’s about inspiring, empowering, and guiding people. You can do that no matter who you are. You do that with the person next to you, the person below you, the person above you, it doesn’t matter. That’s what it’s all about. That’s what a sensei does. That’s why we continued that iconic symbolism of that.
There is a quote that has been attributed to both John Quincy Adams and Dolly Parton. “If your actions inspire others to do more, learn more, become more or dream more then you’re a learner.” We’re back to actions that inspire.
In the spirit of full disclosure, in one of my past lives, I was full-time in the music business and I got to play with Dolly Parton. She is a wonderful person and a tremendous leader. Only a couple of years because I’d been quoting that for years as John Quincy Adams and then we found out that it was Dolly Parton and I’ve been saying, “It’s as good coming from her because she is a brilliant leader and a human-centric leader.” She’s a caring and loving person. Every everything you see about her is the way she is.
That to me is simplicity. Actions inspire.
There was this huge study done probably by Stanford University. Leaders are supposed to help people perform at their best. That’s what we do at the core. People perform at their best when, and only when they know their leaders care about them. Why we needed a couple of $100,000 study to come up with this? I don’t know. People have been saying it and the best leaders like that, “That’s all it’s about.” When you show people caring, the technical terms, when you develop emotional intelligence consistently you practice good interpersonal skills. Don’t be an undercover boss. I hate that show. Management by walking around is nothing new. It’s been around forever, but it’s hard to practice it and I understand the barriers. That’s what we try to overcome. That’s what we help leaders overcome.
My background prior to doing this full-time was I was in the biotech industry and everything was based around what’s the research that backs up why a physician should take this approach. To me, I translated that or transferred that same skillset of questioning by saying, “Where’s the research? What’s the data that says that these behaviors make a difference?” I will jokingly say that in the work that I do now, it’s about bringing in research to validate common sense.
A friend of mine calls it phew research. It happens in a lot of workshops that we do at all levels. It’s interesting because sometimes in the executive workshops that we do. I’m in a room with fantastic leaders. These guys are tremendous leaders. I don’t know how you feel about it but I prefer to work with good people and good organizations. I think we can bring more value there. We can help the strong be even better. It’s hard to fix bad in this field. We’ll be talking about some of the research and some of the data. I get wound up at it sometimes too, but there are quite a few times when I’ve stopped the whole session and said, “Here’s something you have to understand. We’re the people those guys are studying.”
They’re coming up with all these facts and figures. Why? To figure out how we inspire people, how we’re able to empower people, how do we guide people because it does come down to that level. According to John Maxwell, leadership is about influence. How do we influence people? How do we bring out the best in them? Managers will meet expectations. That’s what management’s designed to do. Leaders blow expectations out of the water because we connect on a human level and an emotional level. I look at those guys and say, “You’re the people they’re studying. They’re trying to figure out what you do right so let’s figure out how to keep doing it and do more of it.”
As I was hearing you talk that I wanted to come back, especially as I think it relates to inspiring other people that I’m sure in your own life where you had that a-ha moment where you said, “I can’t do this anymore.” I’m guessing that there were some people along the way that were in your corner that was saying, “Jim, you can do this. You’re better than this.”
Some of them for minutes. One of the big questions we’ve been getting from leaders when stuff is getting tough is how do I inspire people? Long story short with most of the people that we’re asking it, they were asking sincerely and I said, “You’re looking for the grand speech. That’s not what inspiration is about.” It’s about the little things you do. It’s about picking up that phone or connecting with your people on a Zoom meeting and asking them, “Are you okay? What can I do to help you? How is your family? Are you still getting the work done?” That shouldn’t be the first question. Those are the things that are inspirational. There’s nothing more inspirational than your example.
There are a lot of people in my life that they came along, roll the dice sometimes at the right moment or I’d notice them at the right moment. When you’re ready, the master will appear. That’s one of those things that gets translated poorly through the poetry. It sounds nicer that way but what they’re trying to say is if you stick your head in the sand, you’re not going to see anything. In fact, the ostrich sticks his head in the sand, his rear-end is still hanging in there ready to get kicked. We’ve got to get up and take a look around, have our hearts and minds open. That’s when we noticed those people. I was blessed with quite a few people like that.
The other piece is in the gratitude piece. If you look in terms of rituals or things that you do, where does that fit?
Mine’s simple. I know people that practice a little fancier technique and that’s okay. That’s cool. Whatever works for you. I spend at least a couple of times a week to look around and say, “Thank you.” I express those words because that means something because it helps anchor it for me. I try to do it when I catch myself sinking. You mentioned, how do we get out of that loser mentality? It does always work but I don’t always do it but I try when I catch myself sinking. That’s the time when I pull that out and look around and say, “Thank you.” There are so many people that are in worse situations. What it does is it’s a practical inventory. I start looking around, I say, “I have a home. I’ve got plenty of food. I’ve got supportive friends around.” Sometimes it’s been down to just what do I have left? I’ve got some talents and abilities and we all do. Now, let’s figure out what to do with them and get to work.
If I’m reading to this, I have a group that reports to me, what do you think is different now than it was a couple of months ago in regards to leading a group?
It’s probably the remote phenomenon that we’re doing a lot. A lot of people are able to work remotely for the first time. Some of us have been doing that for a long time through this technology. We’ve done a lot of our work this way, but even then, it’s been a shift. I’d say that the biggest issues are people’s fear and trying to manage that uncertainty. We don’t know what’s happening and it’s difficult. This is a difficult situation. I did a little video on this about now is not the time to blame. There’s a lot of blame going out. A lot of anger and a lot of frustration. I understand it. I’m not judging, but I’m saying it’s more useful that we put that aside, especially a lot of our political leaders, it looks like they’re lying.
Most of them haven’t been. If they’re giving you the best information they have now and six hours later, it’s different. We have to accept some of that. There’s a certain bravado and that’s where I’ve been working with some leaders to caution them about that. Not to pick on the political leaders per se, but we can learn lessons from some of the mistakes they’re making. That’s not being judgmental. I understand the pressure. We would all be making mistakes in that position but having said that, let’s learn from those mistakes. I started something different.
Be transparent. If you’re worried, tell your people. You don’t have to come out in tears necessarily. A little couple of tears doesn’t hurt once in a while. Be confident as much as you can, but come out strong and say, “I’m worried too but let’s put our heads together and involve people from all levels.” Especially when you’re disconnected physically, people don’t realize how much happens non-verbally and socially in an office, that’s gone right now. Through this distance technology that we have, we’ve got to make sure that we’re open to that to spend some social time online with your people and to make sure that you’re reaching out. Don’t assume that people are okay because you don’t hear from them. You’re not seeing them every day so you don’t have any other cues.Always be learning, growing, and changing. If you're not changing, you die. Click To Tweet
Jim, you bring up some great points in that as well. I’ll go back to the tears. That’s not bad every so often. It speaks to vulnerability and this is coming from somebody that is in the hall of fame for martial arts, not something that you would normally think of.
Because martial arts was part of my recovery from such a horrible thing, I saw a different side of that than a lot of people do. The masters that I admire all came through some sort of hardship like that too. Not necessarily drugs, but something like an illness, a lack of confidence, and people picking on them for being small. People that were bullied and they’ve overcome these things. It takes a lot of strength to be vulnerable.
To be intentionally vulnerable is the highest form of courage you can exhibit because to me it says, “I’m not confident in who I am that I’m willing to expose myself to you because I care about you.”
I’m a person who always struggled with self-confidence and I always will. I don’t have enough time left in my life to fix it entirely. I won’t go into all the reasons behind it but that’s part of the reason I became a drug addict. The conditions were wired. Having said that, sometimes I’ll say to people, “I’m not a confident person. I’ve learned to manage it. I’ve learned the process to increase it. I’ve learned that the confidence that I do embrace is based on training and preparation, not unsurety of an outcome. That helps me a lot but I’m more courageous than I am confident.”
The absence of fear is stupidity. Nelson Mandela said that same thing. Courage is not the absence of fear, it’s facing your fears, embracing your fears, and doing what you need to do in spite of them. That’s what it’s all about. If you’re feeling a lack of confidence at any given time, I don’t like to fake it until you make it thing. Just walk forward. That’s what courage is. If there weren’t any fear and danger and risk, there isn’t any courage. That’s what defines courage. I think too many times people look at heroic courage as an example and there’s nothing wrong with that, but that’s the simplest kind.
You can see it. I like people to examine their own courage. Are you doing what you need to do to feed your family? Are you doing your best to take care of your employees? Are you putting one foot in front of the other right now? If you’re doing that, that takes tremendous courage. Once in a while, we got to give ourselves credit for it. We’ve got to acknowledge it in ourselves. That’s tricky, especially if you’re a humble person.
When we think about this as we’re talking about this from the standpoint of leadership and your action’s inspiring. This is whether it’s in a personal or professional setting that to be able to speak exactly how you did to say, “There are times where I’m not confident. I battle with that too.” When I’m around people in a group and I can say that generally, everybody gets to go, “Thank you, Jim.” Now I don’t have to feel like every time I’m around Jim, “Jim’s always on and I’m afraid I can’t say what I’d like to say to him because what’s he going to think of me?” If I’m a leader that always has the answer when we know nobody always has the answer, but what it does is it makes people fearful of, “I can’t say that I don’t know what’s going on right now because they’re going to look at me.”
That’s the worst kind of leader. There’s been a lot of studies done. We do a lot of work in uncertainty, internal and external uncertainty. External uncertainty is what we’re dealing with the crisis. We don’t know when these things, but one of our key strategies around here is to be flexible, adaptable, and comfortable with uncertainty. It takes a while to unpack that. How do you become comfortable with uncertainty? We’re doing it right now. You’re training right now. You have to expose people to it in order for them to develop some comfort with it. We need to think that as we’re training young leaders. We can’t keep young people safe from everything. We have to manage the risk and expose it, but to have to be exposed to real risk and uncertainty in order to grow.
The internal uncertainty is exactly that. It’s not being so sure of yourself that you’re not willing to. There was a great study done that showed that leaders who were more uncertain to question their own decisions, questioned their own strategies, questioned their own thinking were the highest performers, they were the most effective. If you show a little vulnerability, you let people in on that process a little bit, they’ll trust you more. Leaders are not supposed to know all the answers. Leaders are supposed to know how to formulate the right questions and that’s a much higher art than knowing all the answers.
Anybody who does know all the answers, that to me is a person that you shouldn’t trust.
Don’t trust them because they’re going to lead you down the wrong path.
We talked about working with the incarcerated kids and they come up with some of the most incredible things. I always joke with them because we do a session. I said, “I’m going to steal that and use it at the conference next week.” One remarkable young man who I’m sure is doing well. We talked about that one time and we were trying to define arrogance and he said, “That’s the person that can never admit that he’s wrong about anything.” I said, “There it is.” That’s exactly the opposite of what you talked about that. People that know that all the answers are spooky people.
Jim, I’ve appreciated this conversation so much in regards to people being able to contact you, what are the best ways to do it as well as listening to your podcast as well which I’m looking forward to?
It’s Walking the Walk podcast. You can find all of that at TheSenseiLeader.com. We have our Sensei Leader Movement Membership, which is the White Belt Level. It’s always free and always will be. When you come there, there’ll be a button you can sign up and join. That’s how you get into it and you become part of our network and we’ve got people from all over the world that are part of this and it’s special. Our Black Belt membership is free too. That’s usually $29 a month. Take advantage of that because that’s the one that has a monthly live call and we have a good discussion every month with the people from all over the place.
I’m happy that we had the opportunity to finally connect living thirty minutes apart. I’m sure this is just the beginning. I appreciated this so much.It takes a lot of strength to be vulnerable. Click To Tweet
I look forward to when you’re going to Walking the Walk. That’s going to be special.
Thanks, take care.
This conversation with Jim was one that was inspiring and enlightening. He has so much experience and background. I think his practice in martial arts has provided such an impact in regards to how do we inspire, empower, and compel others. His approach certainly does that. If you know somebody that would benefit from this episode, I’d ask you to forward it to them. If you haven’t subscribed yet, go ahead and please subscribe to the show. It would mean the world to me if you would leave a rating or a comment on this or any other episode because that’s how this message about reimagining leadership continues to get out there. Until the next episode, I hope we’re able to go out there and rise above your best. Peace.
About Jim Bouchard
Jim is a 2004 inductee to the U.S. Martial Arts Hall of Fame and was twice featured in “Inside Kung Fu” magazine. He has been teaching and practicing martial arts for more than 30 years.
Jim is a volunteer mentor for incarcerated youth, an obsessive golfer and surf guitar player. In 2016 Jim was nominated and rand for Congress.
Jim lives in Brunswick, Maine with his wife and business partner, Alex.
It’s often frightening to show people your vulnerable side because of the lack of trust or a traumatic experience. Tommy Dahlborg, the host of Stronger Thru Vulnerability, believes that you can become stronger by being vulnerable. In this episode, he talks about being vulnerable around the people you can trust, and you’re sure loves you. Tommy goes into the details of the impact having someone actually listen to you can have and ultimately give you a sense of belongingness. Learn and understand as he explains why you don’t need to don a mask just to feel like you belong.
Listen to the podcast here:
How Vulnerability Made Tommy Dahlborg Stronger
My guest is Tommy Dahlborg. He is wise beyond his years. He has a podcast himself called Strength Thru Vulnerability. In this episode, he speaks about his own journey and the power that vulnerability had. It, being one of his greatest strengths. Let’s get into it.
Tommy, thanks for being on. I have been looking forward to our meeting. Your dad made the introduction to us based on an article that I had written in your podcast, which is Strength Thru Vulnerability. He said, “You two need to get together.” Once I saw that I was like, “This is going to happen.” I love your enthusiasm in terms of us talking about that. I’d love for you to talk about how did you decide to create that podcast as a name and what do you hope to have other people gain from it?
First off, Patrick, thank you so much for having me on the show. I’m excited to be here. I’m very happy my dad made the connection between us. The Strength Thru Vulnerability Podcast has been an absolute blast making. It’s a long story to say the least about what led me towards making that podcast. I’ll start with, I have grown up dealing with anxiety for my entire life. I didn’t know it and I couldn’t put a name to it until when I was in 7th grade or so. At that point, there are still so few people talking about mental health stuff. There wasn’t as much information accessible, especially for my parents. A lot of parents aren’t equipped for their child coming up to them saying, “I’m struggling with feeling anxious. What should I do about that?”
I continued dealing with it, struggling, being in an internal pain from it. As I get into college, that stuff heightened because there’s so much more going on. Everything is set to a higher level. The highest level I’ve ever been at. It wasn’t until my senior year, I’m in a relationship with this girl. It was a toxic relationship, unfortunately, but she led me towards seeking the help of a psychiatrist. It wouldn’t have been unless I had gone through pain by myself for so long that I would have been willing to give this a shot. Finally, I was like, “This is so awful. I need to see somebody.” I took her advice. I found a psychiatrist. I went to see him, and he was phenomenal.
He helped me so much. He was an amazing listener. If you go into a counseling session, you realized they say a lot less and listen to me talk the whole time. When you’re like, “Please tell me something.” When that happened, I continued learning how to deal with my anxiety. I came across the fact that I struggle with OCD, which was something that my parents wouldn’t have known. I had no idea until I did my own research and talked a little bit more with professionals about it. As I learned and I unpacked more and more of that, I started growing this feeling of I want to share how important it is to talk about these things because when I was dealing with these things on my own, I felt like I couldn’t tell anybody about them.
I felt like I would be judged and to be able to sit in the room with somebody who understood what I was going through and could have empathy towards me was so powerful. After years of wanting to make a podcast and not knowing what I would want to talk about on it, it occurred to me, “Talk about the stuff you deal with every single day and the stuff that you’re passionate about.” That led me to do the podcast as a place where I can share my story and my vulnerability. Allowing other people to know that whatever they’re struggling with, maybe I haven’t gone through but they’re not alone because there’s a bunch of other people who were dealing with the same things. It’s been a real blessing because I’ve had friends and people, I don’t even know that well who reach out to me to be on the show and they come on. They share their stories in a safe place. It’s been a blast and it’s evolving all the time.Real belongingness happens when we can add that emotional element, be vulnerable, and share who we are. Click To Tweet
Your ability to be vulnerable yourself, I’m guessing people that thought they knew you well when they hear you talk more about that struggle, it’s like a sigh of relief for them too. They’ll go like, “I’ve got issues too that I have bottled up and haven’t talked to other people because I was afraid.” You provide inspiration for them to be able to have those conversations.
I appreciate that Patrick. That’s definitely my hope. I’ve even seen that with people myself so far where there was this girl who I grew up without knowing her. It wasn’t until I started putting out this content and connecting with her that we realized we both struggle with OCD, all these intrusive thoughts, and all this stuff. Now, we have that connection where we get each other. We’re not alone, and there’s so much strength in that. It’s been so cool.
As I hear you talk about that, making those connections, and we were talking earlier about this whole social distancing and isolation how damaging that is. It speaks again to belongingness. We need each other. We’re packed animals and I think this could be an event that has people recognize how much we do need each other to get through the challenges that we’re faced with. We can’t do it alone.
We totally can’t. From an emotional perspective and physical perspective like you’re saying too, it’s one thing to be in the room with somebody, which is obviously something that we’re all missing greatly right now. When we can add those emotional elements too, be vulnerable and share who we are, that’s when real belongingness happens. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with Brene Brown’s work. I’m her biggest fanboy. She’s so good. I forget exactly how she puts but she says a lot of us are taught. We’re taught to fit in. To put a mask on is never belonging. It’s not until we’re vulnerable that we can belong. You’re totally right that this is the time where we know that we’ve taken for granted so many of the small things. I wish I can wait an hour in a coffee shop line right now. We miss that and to be able to be back in that situation and share our hearts more is going to be incredible. People are seeing the importance of that.
This is not meant to be patronizing on your age but you were so far ahead of the game being at your age because it was much later in my life that I was able to become more authentic. At times, it’s still difficult and I came from a very loving and caring environment. My parents were very much around the image. What are other people going to think? It was always about how you dressed, is your hair cut right, all of these things. It was like a mask all the time. It was feeling of am I authentic to who I am or am I doing it to be accepted by everybody else? If you’re only going to accept me if I stay in this mold if you know what’s going on in here, maybe you won’t.
That’s the most terrifying thing ever. That’s where I say to the people who come on my podcast, it’s not easy to share who you are and what you struggle with. The people who have come on, they’ve done their work. They’ve gone to therapy. They’ve dealt with these things for so long that they’re at that point where they’re confident enough in themselves that they can share this message. There are so many people who are in the trenches of that stuff. It’s incredibly difficult. Obviously, you’re not alone in the fact that I know a lot of people, a lot of my friends, my generation who have been brought up the same way where it’s all about image. I feel like a lot of times too. Our culture almost put so much emphasis on, what have you done?
What are your accomplishments? If I don’t have this degree, am I lesser then? Am I not going to be accepted because I didn’t go to college? There are so many different things. To feel like you can’t fully be yourself is one of the most detrimental things to who we are and yet, that’s all around us and rambling a little bit. I think that we all have a bit of impostor syndrome too. I share this message of strength thru vulnerability. I try to share my stories and my struggles but there are so many times I’m in a room with people that I don’t know well. I find myself thinking like, “Am I being me or who is this guy? He’s hilarious but who is he?” We all have a sense of that no matter how vulnerable and real we’re being, but it’s hard.
You bring up a great point on that in terms of this impostor syndrome because I would say the same thing. I put out a lot of content around positive behaviors, positive attitudes, mindset, and vulnerability. I remember I did a post on it. It was saying that I put these out as much for other people as to hold myself accountable as a reminder to what I need to continue to do myself. It’s not as though I’ve already arrived and here’s what everybody else should be doing. It’s that I struggle with the same things and here are the things that I’m doing on a daily basis to try and remind me of the path I want to walk on.
That’s so real and it’s completely relevant to me. I’m laying on my couch trying to find some stillness even though I’m always inside, it’s hard to find stillness. I’m always watching YouTube, Netflix, working, or something. I was chilling out and I was thinking to myself, I share this message of strength thru vulnerability. I have some things in my heart right now. I don’t feel sharing them. They’re causing some stress and some anxiety. I have a little sister right here who I could talk to but I don’t want to. I was like, “Tommy, you got to do what you say. You got to do what you preach.” I ended up talking to my little sister. I shared some difficult things I was going through. Of course, she’s my sister so she’s going to accept me anyway. I knew it was a safe environment but it was still so helpful despite how difficult it was or how much I didn’t want to share those things I needed to. I felt more free after.
As I mentioned, I’ve been doing podcasts or webinars. One of the ones that I did before we got on this show was with a group around emotional intelligence. One of the articles, I still have it in front of me here was on emotional agility. It was a Harvard Business Review article I was talking about. It was about the importance of naming what we’re feeling and not to dismiss that it’s not there. I drew off of this. There are fMRI studies that have been done where they have people that sit in functional magnetic resonance imaging machine and they will ask them to talk about certain feelings and that part of their brain lights up. They were talking about this in terms of the importance of being able to talk about how we’re feeling can help lower that level of stress or whatever that feeling is that being able to talk about it is so important to get it out.
I completely agree with that message and to have science back that up is awesome. I mentioned something earlier where I said I knew I was in a safe place with my little sister. I knew I wouldn’t be judged by her. That’s also a message that I share a lot on my podcast too is that you don’t go and be vulnerable by posting all your feelings on Facebook. You find somebody who you love, who you know loves you, and who you know you can trust. Those are the three biggest things. Whether that’s parent, sibling, best friend, or mental health professional, or whatever it is, find that person. That’s the one that you want to share these things with because not everybody deserves to hear your story either. That’s important to share.
Are you familiar with a book called Radical Candor?Fitting in by putting a mask on is never actually belonging. It's not until we're vulnerable, that we can actually belong. Click To Tweet
Radical Candor is not Brene Brown. It’s in a different way though. It’s more of what is still relevant here. It talks about how we need to be able to be candid with each other but I can only be candid with you if there’s a sense of trust and that I care about you as a person. If not, if I’m going to critique you to make either myself feel better or you look worse, it doesn’t work. I’m not trying to make you better by telling you these things, but it’s almost positioned in a way to say that it’s an obligation that we have. If we really care for somebody else and we want to see them get better, improve, or hear our point of view, then we need to have honest conversations with them and be transparent with each other. Oftentimes we’re not. I don’t want to say something to you because either I’m afraid I’m going to be uncomfortable about talking to you about it or I don’t want you to feel uncomfortable yet that maybe what needs to happen. We need to have an honest conversation and it comes from a place of love, not a place of I’m doing this to make myself look better than you.
I totally agree. That’s a great point. You see both ends of that all the time and with all the work you do in leadership, you see it all the time as well where you can separate the good bosses from the bad bosses mainly with that. I’ve had a few incredible bosses and the biggest thing that stuck out about them was that they could have those difficult conversations with me because they cared. I knew that I was protected and trusted and they were being real with me. They knew that I was doing the same with them because your people are going to reciprocate what you show them. I’ve had a few bad bosses who were completely in it for themselves. They didn’t care about Tommy Dahlborg. You can absolutely see that. That’s why people leave those jobs.
My experience has been, more often than not, that is an individual that’s either unhappy with who they are or insecure with themselves. That’s why they treat somebody else poorly. It’s less about you and more about themselves. That’s why the name of your podcast could be a subtitle for leadership because it is to me. One of the definitions that I will often draw off of is if your actions inspire somebody to dream more, learn more, do more, or become more, you’re a leader, nothing in there about a title. It’s about actions that inspire. Part of that is demonstrating vulnerability. We need that. We’re certainly going to see more of that in the environment that we’re in. I believe that it’s going to be more necessary to see that people can demonstrate that.
We jokingly said before we started here that that doesn’t go to say that I’m not going to follow the person that every day says, “I don’t know what I’m doing again. I’m afraid. Where are we going?” You want to know that that’s in that person’s capacity to be able to do that because you trust them. If I’m reporting to you and you tell me I’d made mistake the other day, I don’t know the answer to this, or whatever, it gives me permission to be able to do the same thing. If Tommy can say it, then I guess I can say when I don’t know the answer to it too. Wouldn’t it be better?
There’s so much to be said about that. In my short experience in the real working world, my first professional boss is somebody who is incredible at being vulnerable and connecting with his people. Throughout this process of COVID-19, this whole pandemic, there’s so much power in somebody being able to say like, “I don’t know what’s going on. I’m a little nervous.” It’s weird to think that the person leading you telling you that they’re a little nervous makes you feel better but it does. You’re like, “I’m not the only one who’s nervous about this. We’re in this together.” I totally agree with that. I love that.
Generationally, you’re on the fringe. Are you considered Millennial still?
That’s a great question. It depends on who you ask.
Generationally, there can be a bias that the younger generation doesn’t want to work. They don’t care as much about doing good work which bores me to know when I hear somebody say that because I’ve got twenty nieces and nephews that are all in that range. All of them are in the positions that they’ve worked very hard wherever they are. I don’t know anybody that’s sitting around binge-watching on anything all day long and they don’t want to work. It’s more an indictment on poor leadership and on the individual. Your generation has done a much better job of saying, “We’re not doing this. We want more.”To feel like you can't fully be yourself is one of the most detrimental things to who we are, and yet, that's all around us. Click To Tweet
From a leadership perspective, it brings out the importance of being able to adapt. My generation is clearly different from the generation before in a lot of different ways. I know what a lot of my friends’ value and what I value is why are we doing this? I love asking the question of why not just like, “Give me this sheet of numbers. Let me plug in these.” That’s not fulfilling to me but if I know, the end result is to help a family buy a home from a banking perspective. Giving us that why helps motivate us. It helps motivate me. When you see these companies take advantage of their people or take advantage of their customers, my generation has been great about speaking up on that and making sure that people know that we don’t want to work for that. We don’t want to stand for that. The why is so important to us and I’m happy about that. From a leadership perspective, leaders need to know that. They need to be able to adapt and be like, “These kids care about this value.”
It’s going to take some time but I completely agree with what you’re saying. I would say the generation before you thought that they were questioning in their head, why and they were saying this is ridiculous. This is a dumb idea. If somebody didn’t say, you’re going to do it because I’m your boss and I tell you you’re going to do it. If there was more of this is why we’re doing this, you could still disagree with it to some extent but at least, you felt part of it. You were involved in the why. It seems so simple but it’s so powerful on that. As it relates to your podcast, where can somebody go to listen to it?
Is it once a week?
Once a week. Every single Saturday, there’s an episode. As a little note, it’s Strength Thru Vulnerability. I spell thru because that looks better.
Tommy, I love what you’re doing. I have great respect for you just in this conversation that we’ve had in terms of hearing your story and where you want to go with. I’m sure you’re going to be successful.
Patrick, that really means a lot. I appreciate you having me on the show. All the work you’re doing is amazing, too. I hope you keep it up and I’ll be watching it.
This has been my honor.
If you haven’t had an opportunity to listen to Tommy’s podcast, I highly encourage you to do that. You can tell by the conversation that we had when we’re talking about actions that inspire, empower, and compel others to want to follow our lead, Tommy is on the right track. If you know somebody you think would benefit from this podcast, I’d ask you to forward it onto them. If you haven’t subscribed yet, please subscribe. It would mean the world to me if you would leave rating or comment because that is how this message about re-imagining leadership will continue to get out there. Until the next episode, I hope you’re able to go out there and rise above your best.
- Strength Thru Vulnerability
- Radical Candor
- Apple Podcast – Strength Thru Vulnerability
- Spotify – Strength Thru Vulnerability
This episode, Patrick Veroneau talks about his insights on why he thinks that more employees will quit during and after the pandemic than before and not in a conventional way. He explains why and how the pandemic can cause people to be disengaged from their work and the role that leaders and organizations’ behaviors play in it. Patrick emphasizes the dangers of having disengaged employees and provides strategies for avoiding it by being ahead of the curve in developing better behaviors. Learn and understand why you need to start identifying the challenges involved in the current work setting and provide ample care your people need.
Listen to the podcast here:
Why Many More Employees Will Quit Today Than Before The Pandemic
I want to talk about organizations at risk of having their employees quit at higher levels than they have ever seen. I know that sounds crazy in a time where we’re seeing 20% unemployment rates, who are going to quit their job when unemployment is at 20%? I will tell you, there are many people and it’s not what you think. Stay tuned and let’s get into it.
As I mentioned, unemployment is at about 20%, maybe a little more. It’s at the highest rates we’ve ever seen in our lifetimes for the most part. What is interesting about that is that we knew prior to COVID in regards to organizations for a few decades that the level of disengagement within companies about two-thirds of employees within an organization are disengaged. That has not gone away. It’s going to get worse. What I mean by that is how organizations and individuals within organizations that may be in leadership roles decide to behave toward those people that are working within the organization will make a big difference.
If there is a mentality out there of people should be happy that they have a job. It’s business as usual. You are going to see more people quit. The difference is that they will stay. They will not be leaving the organization, which is far more damaging to an organization than those people that quit and did go somewhere else. These are people that are almost like ghosts roaming the halls. They’re there, but they’re really not there. In this time, that’s what will happen more than likely. We saw this back in 2008 during the last crisis, this same process. If organizations don’t behave in ways that take into consideration what many people are dealing with, it is going to be catastrophic on a different level in terms of productivity within organizations. There are a couple of different things that I wanted to touch on here. One is we know in regards to the situation that we’re in, the level of stress that this has created for individuals is immense.
I had presented some data on a navigating stress workshop that I was doing for leaders. What I did was I cited some of the data that was out there from Express Scripts over increases from mid-February to mid-March 2020, as it related to antidepressants, antianxiety meds, and insomnia medications. All of those had incredible jumps. Antianxiety meds increased by about 37% in terms of the number of prescriptions that were filled. As it related to antidepressants, it was about 18%. In insomnia drugs, it was about 14%. What that says is how much stress individuals are dealing with?
bctt tweet=”In person, we oftentimes are more productive than when we’re isolated. ” username=”coachpatrickv”]
If we combine that with isolation, which many of us are feeling, and I know that there is so much talk about the impact or the benefit of having people work remotely, this is going to provide many opportunities going forward. I don’t deny that. However, what we know about research around belongingness is that we’re like pack animals. We need each other. There’s also research that shows that in-person we oftentimes are more productive than when we’re isolated. That’s not to say that there are benefits to this because they’re truly are. It is going to be important for organizations and individuals to understand and appreciate that decentralizing a team or isolation can also provide or present its own challenges if we don’t understand that and appreciate what is happening.
The other end of this is we think about it from the standpoint of burnout. Burnout is not new. It was in existence prior to COVID, but you’re going to see it even more in many different scenarios where you have smaller workforces yet more work that needs to be done. A lot of the work that I do in the healthcare industry, I was already seeing that. There was already a high level of burnout where many providers were feeling that they didn’t have enough time. They were overworked. What’s important here going forward is to say, “How do we deal with those things that we need to appreciate the situation that we’re in?” This is important. One of the things that I had listed here was empathy.
I’ll talk about it from two different points. One is a story that I heard of an individual, an executive that was leaving an organization. They were reducing their workforce and he was one of the individuals that were going to be leaving. The organization talked about the need for them to demonstrate empathy over the next six weeks, to be able to navigate this situation with their employees at home. It was as though this was something that they had to turn on for six weeks. After six weeks, we’ll go back to what we were doing before.
We won’t focus on empathy. To me, when I think of that, if we use this as a tool to how do we get people to go where we want them to go, not thinking about what the real impact or importance of having empathy is, then it’s going to backfire. What do you think’s going to happen to those people that all of a sudden on week seven, they’re like, “You don’t seem to care anymore? What’s going on?” I’m not saying that there’s going to be a switch there, but again, this is simply the conversation that happened with this individual.
There are ways that we can avoid this happening in terms of this feeling of employees being burnt out, being isolated, feeling more stress, feeling less appreciation within organizations, and feeling as though maybe they’re being taken advantage of because of the situation. Those things will backfire on an organization. You will have people that will quit and stay. The behaviors that I will often talk about in this are about building relationships. The behaviors that build better relationships. This is exactly what is needed at this time and at all times. It needs to be even more focused on at this point.
If we do this, organizations will be in a much better position with the employees that they have to probably solve many of the problems that they’re going to face in a much better way. The first thing that I would talk about is creating an environment where you’re a learner. There’s a quote that I’ve used in the past with Eric Hoffer that says, “In times of change, learners inherit the earth while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped for a world that no longer exists.” I don’t think there’s a person out there that wouldn’t disagree that we are in a time of incredible change and the way you lead pre-COVID and the way that you are going to need to lead going forward from here. The behaviors that you will need to model are going to be different and quite honestly better in terms of getting people to feel inspired, empowered and compelled to want to go where you’re asking them to go.
Of those, we think about congruence. Remember to walk the talk. When your words don’t match your actions, there is a lack of integrity. You will build a sense of distrust within the organization if what you say and what you do are not the same things. Most organizations in their mission or in their company description say that their employees are their most valuable asset. If you don’t demonstrate that through this, if you treat people as though you should be lucky to have a job in this environment, then you will have already started down that path of people quitting but staying. Next is around appreciation. This is about recognizing the impact that isolation and restrictions have had on individuals. This is incredible in terms of the environment we’ve been placed in, where you have maybe two parents, both on their jobs, working out of home, you’ve got kids working out of a home or the opposite of this.
You have somebody that lives alone. That’s been in complete isolation. That even if there were an introvert have lost out because they haven’t been able to interact with other people. The way that we are meant to, which brings me to the next point in regards to, as we work remotely. The challenge from the standpoint of belongingness is, we need to be much more appreciative of how do we bring people together. We know through all the research around belongingness that we are pack animals, we need each other. If people feel as though they are not connected to the mission or the group or the individual, if they feel isolated, then the impact is going to be negative.Learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped for a world that no longer exists. Click To Tweet
It’s going to provide an opportunity or the need for those that manage teams to find ways to connect more often with individuals without seeming as though I’m micromanaging somebody, but there is importance there. The next is around listening and I’ve often talked about listening in four different ways, listening with our ears, tone of voice, the words that somebody is saying, listening with our eyes, body language and facial expressions. That’s important. Next is listening with our minds. When we hear somebody say something, it’s listening in the way of trying to be curious as to is what they said and what I’ve heard what they’ve meant.
The only way we find that out is by clarifying simply by even saying, “What I heard you say is, is that correct? What I think you’re saying to me is this, am I right?” Lastly is listening with empathy. It’s about putting yourself in the other person’s place and saying, “How would I want them to listen to me?” If I was on the other side of that, how would I want them to listen to me of all of those? Listening with ears, mind, and heart are probably most important, especially if we’re on calls with individuals that we’re trying to listen to. What are the words? What are the tones that they’re putting out there?
If we’re on Zoom or some other online platform, that’s video, looking at their body language, what are they doing when we’re having these conversations? These are important to be listening to those people around us. The next is around empathy is demonstrating empathy for those people that are isolated, trying to understand what’s it like to be where they are in the environment that they’re in. That requires us to suspend our own judgment of what we think is going on but trying to be there for them. I was speaking with somebody, in the organization that I’m doing an online workshop with one of the directors of this group was saying that one of their managers was having a difficult time remotely.
This was somebody, as this director said, was somebody more of a hands-on manager. What that meant was they were more of a micromanager and were having a difficult time because they had employees that work remotely and they weren’t quite as compliant as they had been in the office. To me, this is an opportunity for this manager to recognize the challenges somebody else is going through, the distractions that they’re dealing with, rather than, how do I control you? How do I gain control? The harder they try and control, the more difficult it’s going to be. Lastly, it’s around making sure that we set clear expectations and hold each other to ownership of those.
We’re an environment that things are moving all the time. We don’t know what’s expected. The more ambiguous things are, the more challenging they are for individuals. The more likely people are to quit and stay. This is a time where people need to understand what do we need from each other? Maybe not what’s our function going to look like, but how are we going to communicate with each other? What can we expect from each other? What do we need from each other during this period of time? Those are things that are important that we need to recognize.
If we demonstrate those behaviors, when we look at the challenges we’re faced with, the root cause of all of our challenges are around behaviors. When we understand that and work to identify and develop better behaviors, we will build the strongest relationships we can. This is a bridge that we will travel continually, whether it’s personal, professional or in the community, these relationships that we’re building through these behaviors will get us through whatever challenge that’s coming our way. It will also reduce the likelihood that people will quit and stay.
I hope you found this helpful. There’s so much opportunity here in terms of, where we go from here from a growth perspective? That won’t happen without the right behaviors. If you know somebody you think would benefit from hearing this episode or any other, I’d ask that you forward it on. It would mean the world to me if you would leave a rating or a comment on this or any other episode because that’s how this message of reimagining leadership and finding a better way, continues to get out there. Until the next episode, I hope you’re able to go out there and rise above your best.