Leadership is about inspiring, empowering, and guiding people. In this episode, Jim Bouchard, founder of The Sensei Leader Movement, joins Patrick Veroneau as they talk about reimagining leadership through a black belt’s approach. Jim shares his journey throughout the years and the lessons he learned in the school of hard knocks that transformed him from loser to leader. Jim and Patrick discuss the knocks that most entrepreneurs endure and the importance of resiliency that superstars in the space possess. Learn how Jim trained himself to be grateful and share his struggles to help his clients absorb what he went through and be inspired by his failures.
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Jim Bouchard Shares A Black Belt’s Approach To Leadership
My guest is Jim Bouchard, who aside from being an executive coach with his company called The Sensei Leader. He also runs Black Belt Mindset Productions, and has been inducted into The Martial Arts Hall of Fame. Jim knocked it out of the park on this conversation where we did explore what it means to reimagine leadership. Let’s get into it.
Jim, welcome to the show. I appreciate you taking the time and as I was going through your bio and your site, one of the things that stood out to me was this tagline that you had in there, “From loser to leader” and talking about your own story. I think it resonated so much with me and I was wondering if we could maybe start there and see where this goes in regards to leadership.
The whole adventure leadership started when I was a drug addict. It was in my early twenties. I was living in one of those old 1950s style trailers you see around once in a while with the heavy louvered glass windows and all that stuff, and a beautiful little plywood bumps out on the front duct tape to hold the windows together. That was a dark part of my life. I was up to about eight bong hits a day. For people who don’t know what that is, it’s a water pipe that you fill up with marijuana and the only cool way to do it is to smoke it right down, keep it yourself.
Then all the other drugs to keep the party going and to slow the party down. It was intense for a while. One particular night somebody passed me a joint. I didn’t smoke joints at the time because I couldn’t get high on that. It took a lot more than that to get me high. I bogarted and I took the whole thing for myself. I was always mellow when I got high usually, but something kicked in this particular night. I started running around the trailer, I guess I tried to dive out through the louvered glass windows and fortunately my friends got me tackled and calmed down a little bit.
Long story short, I woke up in the morning and looked in the mirror and it looked like I went through three rounds with Mike Tyson. I had made a mess of myself and that was the day I said, “That’s it. I can’t keep going like this.” It was a good thing we found out later on that that joint was laced with angel dust. It’s a blessing that I wasn’t dead or in jail so many times. Most of my friends were betting that I wouldn’t live past 30. I used to think that that was a lousy resume for somebody that worked in leadership and train leaders but I came to realize how useful it was because I’m sure you’ll agree.
The most powerful leadership we can argue with all the different styles and techniques are and whatnot, but it all boils down to a couple of things and transformation is one of the most powerful. I know they’ve coined that into transformational leadership, nothing new. Lao-Tzu talked about that 2,500 years ago. Who’s better to talk about transformation than somebody that had to learn it in order to survive? All the lessons that I learned along the way have a lot of resonance with people in leadership positions. The best leaders are transformational leaders. In fact, the best leaders are the ones that make change happen.
I’m sure for you that the decision was made then, but I’m sure it wasn’t a smooth trajectory up to success.
You might say that. There’s always ups and downs. If you want to make the dragon laugh, tell him your plans for tomorrow for one thing and we’re all feeling a little bit of that. I think part of the worst words we could ever say in our life is things couldn’t get any worse because as soon as you say that, it’s a good chance something else will come along that’s even worse. The trick is how do you keep pulling yourself back out of the fire. In martial arts, we had a saying, “Knocked down seven times, get up eight.” Sometimes I share that at conferences and people will say, “What happens if you get down knocked down nine?” I said, “Then you get up ten.” That’s what we need to do and sometimes it takes these hard knocks for us to learn that lesson. This is where we learned those lessons.
I think when we look back on these things, if you ask the most successful individuals, there were struggles. Those are the things that they often point to you to say, “Those were the turning points for me. It wasn’t everything going well. That’s how I got to where I am.” It generally is the things that weren’t going well that somehow you said, “This was the lesson I needed.”The best leaders are the ones that make change happen. Click To Tweet
I wish I could remember this study to share the attribute of it, but it was a study done some time ago of the highest performing entrepreneurs in the world. The central question was, how many times did you fail? We’re talking catastrophic failures, bankruptcies, living in a car, and these types of stories. Surprisingly, most of the top entrepreneurs in the world, the people that have built the biggest companies have had at least 4 or 5 major failures before they found the success that moved them forward. We hear the stories a lot about the people who were born with silver spoons in their mouths, but the superstars in the entrepreneurial world are the ones who took the knocks and kept coming back.
The other part of your story that you talk about is a two-time college dropout, which I think is interesting. You were an overachiever there.
It takes practice. I didn’t do it right the first time, so I decided I’d do it again.
You’ve written multiple books. You were inducted into the Martial Arts Hall of Fame in 2004. As we’re sitting here in this crisis, we have unemployment that is going to be at levels that we have never seen in our lifetime and it makes me think too, how many people think they are that loser for whatever reason that they’re spiraling down? To me, I think your story is important for people to say, “Here’s somebody that dealt with many challenges. You can do it too.” As you work with your clients and individuals and speak all over the world, how do you do that? What are some of the things that you would be telling somebody right now that’s in this space they’re struggling?
I always appreciate it when someone says, “Thanks for sharing that story. I’m glad you put some humor in it and you’re comfortable with it.” If they catch me after the presentation, I have to come clean. I say, “I’m not comfortable with it at all.” I said, “I’m ashamed of it.” Nobody wants to go through life with that label of a drug addict. The true regret of having lost about three years of my life to that episode is that I wasted how many years trying to repair the damage. I trained myself to share it with some degree of comfort and humor so people would be able to do absorb it, but we all got that inner loser in us.
There’re interesting studies that show some of the highest performing leaders, the best leaders are people who have a healthy sense of humility, and a healthy sense of vulnerability, uncertainty, personal uncertainty, internal uncertainty. It’s not to push that loser side of us or that loser feeling aside, it’s to pay attention to it. Shake hands with that loser side but we can’t get stuck there. That’s the problem. If we get stuck there, if we allow ourselves to get stuck there for too long, then we slip into a state of clinical depression. That’s how that happens. It’s a matter of taking stock of what we’ve got and that’s another part of the reason I share that story too, that I started to learn to be grateful at the worst part of my life and to be grateful for what little I had.
I remember one distinct time that I looked around, I didn’t know if I could feed myself that week and I said, “My poverty was self-imposed so I’m not looking for anybody to feel sorry.” Poverty is poverty. I looked and said, “Thank goodness, I have a place to live.” I had some people that were looking out for me. It started from there because wherever we’re going to go now, if you’re feeling like a loser right now, I understand. Believe me I have my moments. You and I were talking about this before we went on. A lot of our friends in the speaking world looked up and all of a sudden, their entire year was gone as far as work goes.
Even though it wasn’t our fault, you can’t help but say, “What the hell is wrong with me? How do I get started again?” One of the other things that I learned to help manage through a situation like this is that gratitude practice to take stock of what we have no matter how little it is, emotionally, spiritually, and materially, and then decide what’s the first step. What am I going to do from here? There’re so many opportunities in this. I’m talking about from living in a van and not knowing what I was going to eat that day to say, “What can I do with what I have and the talents I have and the skills that I have? How can I reapply them?” I think that’s important right now. There’s a lot of people that are looking at, “How do I repurpose the skills and talents I’ve had over the years.”
I’m not diminishing the pain. I understand it. I feel it. I’ve been through it before. Particularly people my age and older, you don’t want to start over again at 60, 70 years old but if that’s what we’ve got to do, then let’s look at the opportunities. Here’s another way to say it. I had asked the question, I’m sure you’ve asked this question too, “Who do you want to be in 5 years or 10 years, 20 years?” I remember this one woman caught me on that and she said, “Jim, you’ve been asking us. Where do you want to be in twenty years?” I said, “I have no idea but I can guarantee you that I don’t want to be the same person I am right now.” Let’s always be learning, growing, and changing. That’s one of the great lessons I learned from my martial arts masters. That was powerful.
There’s a quote that I have been using for about a decade and it’s by a gentleman named Eric Hoffer who was around in the ‘50s. The is, “In times of change, learners inherit the earth while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to inherit a world that no longer exists.” It is soulful because it speaks to what you said that leaders are learners. If we’re not learning, then we’re not growing. If ever there was a time we’re in change, this is it. If you’re not figuring out what things are going to look like going forward. Hearing your story, I think of resources and resourcefulness and that we all lack resources. We don’t have enough money. We don’t have enough time. We don’t have the right education, but we all have equal access to resourcefulness regardless of where we are.
That’s part of managing the uncertainty too. The world is changing. That’s what it is. Sometimes when things are going smoothly, we don’t notice it as much. We have this illusion of the status quo. Things are always changing and that’s why transformational leadership is so important as individuals and as leaders of organizations. If you’re not changing, you’re dying. That’s the way it is and a crisis like this brings it out.
You said something interesting in terms of shaking hands with it. When I think of that, I think of mindfulness. Being present and with stress to is almost sitting with it and getting comfortable in that space. I believe that’s what you’re saying, your training is probably all based around that. You face it. Gratitude for challenges. It puts the power back in you.
I caution people not to worry too much about the mysticism behind it because people can get caught up in the mysticism of these things. I was blessed to learn such practical philosophies through 30, 35 years in counting in martial arts. I was blessed to be exposed to some of the greatest living philosophers we have on the planet and amazing people. How not to be pollyannish and mystical about it? Take the gratitude thing because that’s one that people can dive into deeply philosophically. Think about it this way.
It is such a practical thing. What it is, is an inventory if you want to put it in the most tangible terms. You’re taking a look at what you have no matter how little it is because that’s what you’ve got to work with right now. It shifts your focus from what you talked about because we can obsess over what we don’t have, especially in times like this. I’m preaching from the gully, not from the mountain. Part of the blessing of this life is that as I’m sharing these ideas with people, I have to revisit them too and it helps remind me of what should I be doing and practice what I preach. This time challenges. I’m not lying. I’ve been joking with people because they’ll say, “Jim, don’t you ever get down?” I said, “I pitch some fit. I go behind the curtain so you can’t see it,” and I try to come back with a smile. I think that’s a good path for a lot of people in leadership, especially if you’re responsible for a lot of other people.
You said that wonderfully in terms of what we do if we talk about even going back to thousands of years, mindfulness has its origins I believe out of Buddhism.
I think all the great philosophies had it. They call it by different names. That was the path that I ended up embracing for a number of reasons. Part of the reason is because the teachers I had approached it from such a practical point of view. They didn’t trout it in mysticism. One of my favorite teachers, Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming. He said they weren’t trying to be mysterious. They were trying to figure it all out. He explained why a lot of these Asian philosophies in particular. It depends on the way people translate these things. They can sound so grand and so mystical and elite.
Dr. Yang explained from Asia, a lot of that has to do with the way we translate it because the language was poetic. It was lyric because they didn’t write things down. Most people couldn’t read or write. They were saying these things or they and recited them as poems. When we embrace it that way, it can get spooky. That’s how Yoshi says it, “Jim not trying to be spooky.” He’s right about that. All they were trying to do is figure it out and make sure that people could remember it. We’ve got to get past the poetry and look at the real heart of it, which is practical.
I’d appreciate your perspective on this. I think based on what you said, I’ve got a good idea where this is going but isn’t that the case with leadership in general? It’s that we’ve overcomplicated this. It’s not about the course on decisiveness and delegation because when we do that, I see it from a standpoint of organizations. When we make it, “This is complicated stuff,” it gives people an out to say, “That’s why you can’t do it. That’s why people don’t.”Get knocked down seven times and get up eight. Click To Tweet
That’s why we make that distinction between management and leadership. I always quote, Admiral Grace Hopper. She’s one of the brilliant philosophers we’ve had. She’s an amazing woman. She was the first woman who was an Admiral in our service in our Navy and she’s known. She invented most of the high-level computer technology or languages and stuff. The processes that we use now have evolved from her work. She said, “You manage things, you lead people and for too long, we went overboard on management.” She said that a while ago, but that’s still true. We still go overboard on management. Management is complex. Management is about dealing with complexity. Leadership should be painfully simple.
Those three keywords that we carefully picked as our flagship words, what does a leader do? I don’t care what your rank, what your title is because it has nothing to do with authority. You’ve got great leaders on your front lines. They have little or no authority at all. Let’s face it, in a crisis like this has exposed some. I’m not picking on anybody. I’m not waxing political, but there are plenty of people with a lot of power and authority that are lousy leaders. It’s about inspiring, empowering, and guiding people. You can do that no matter who you are. You do that with the person next to you, the person below you, the person above you, it doesn’t matter. That’s what it’s all about. That’s what a sensei does. That’s why we continued that iconic symbolism of that.
There is a quote that has been attributed to both John Quincy Adams and Dolly Parton. “If your actions inspire others to do more, learn more, become more or dream more then you’re a learner.” We’re back to actions that inspire.
In the spirit of full disclosure, in one of my past lives, I was full-time in the music business and I got to play with Dolly Parton. She is a wonderful person and a tremendous leader. Only a couple of years because I’d been quoting that for years as John Quincy Adams and then we found out that it was Dolly Parton and I’ve been saying, “It’s as good coming from her because she is a brilliant leader and a human-centric leader.” She’s a caring and loving person. Every everything you see about her is the way she is.
That to me is simplicity. Actions inspire.
There was this huge study done probably by Stanford University. Leaders are supposed to help people perform at their best. That’s what we do at the core. People perform at their best when, and only when they know their leaders care about them. Why we needed a couple of $100,000 study to come up with this? I don’t know. People have been saying it and the best leaders like that, “That’s all it’s about.” When you show people caring, the technical terms, when you develop emotional intelligence consistently you practice good interpersonal skills. Don’t be an undercover boss. I hate that show. Management by walking around is nothing new. It’s been around forever, but it’s hard to practice it and I understand the barriers. That’s what we try to overcome. That’s what we help leaders overcome.
My background prior to doing this full-time was I was in the biotech industry and everything was based around what’s the research that backs up why a physician should take this approach. To me, I translated that or transferred that same skillset of questioning by saying, “Where’s the research? What’s the data that says that these behaviors make a difference?” I will jokingly say that in the work that I do now, it’s about bringing in research to validate common sense.
A friend of mine calls it phew research. It happens in a lot of workshops that we do at all levels. It’s interesting because sometimes in the executive workshops that we do. I’m in a room with fantastic leaders. These guys are tremendous leaders. I don’t know how you feel about it but I prefer to work with good people and good organizations. I think we can bring more value there. We can help the strong be even better. It’s hard to fix bad in this field. We’ll be talking about some of the research and some of the data. I get wound up at it sometimes too, but there are quite a few times when I’ve stopped the whole session and said, “Here’s something you have to understand. We’re the people those guys are studying.”
They’re coming up with all these facts and figures. Why? To figure out how we inspire people, how we’re able to empower people, how do we guide people because it does come down to that level. According to John Maxwell, leadership is about influence. How do we influence people? How do we bring out the best in them? Managers will meet expectations. That’s what management’s designed to do. Leaders blow expectations out of the water because we connect on a human level and an emotional level. I look at those guys and say, “You’re the people they’re studying. They’re trying to figure out what you do right so let’s figure out how to keep doing it and do more of it.”
As I was hearing you talk that I wanted to come back, especially as I think it relates to inspiring other people that I’m sure in your own life where you had that a-ha moment where you said, “I can’t do this anymore.” I’m guessing that there were some people along the way that were in your corner that was saying, “Jim, you can do this. You’re better than this.”
Some of them for minutes. One of the big questions we’ve been getting from leaders when stuff is getting tough is how do I inspire people? Long story short with most of the people that we’re asking it, they were asking sincerely and I said, “You’re looking for the grand speech. That’s not what inspiration is about.” It’s about the little things you do. It’s about picking up that phone or connecting with your people on a Zoom meeting and asking them, “Are you okay? What can I do to help you? How is your family? Are you still getting the work done?” That shouldn’t be the first question. Those are the things that are inspirational. There’s nothing more inspirational than your example.
There are a lot of people in my life that they came along, roll the dice sometimes at the right moment or I’d notice them at the right moment. When you’re ready, the master will appear. That’s one of those things that gets translated poorly through the poetry. It sounds nicer that way but what they’re trying to say is if you stick your head in the sand, you’re not going to see anything. In fact, the ostrich sticks his head in the sand, his rear-end is still hanging in there ready to get kicked. We’ve got to get up and take a look around, have our hearts and minds open. That’s when we noticed those people. I was blessed with quite a few people like that.
The other piece is in the gratitude piece. If you look in terms of rituals or things that you do, where does that fit?
Mine’s simple. I know people that practice a little fancier technique and that’s okay. That’s cool. Whatever works for you. I spend at least a couple of times a week to look around and say, “Thank you.” I express those words because that means something because it helps anchor it for me. I try to do it when I catch myself sinking. You mentioned, how do we get out of that loser mentality? It does always work but I don’t always do it but I try when I catch myself sinking. That’s the time when I pull that out and look around and say, “Thank you.” There are so many people that are in worse situations. What it does is it’s a practical inventory. I start looking around, I say, “I have a home. I’ve got plenty of food. I’ve got supportive friends around.” Sometimes it’s been down to just what do I have left? I’ve got some talents and abilities and we all do. Now, let’s figure out what to do with them and get to work.
If I’m reading to this, I have a group that reports to me, what do you think is different now than it was a couple of months ago in regards to leading a group?
It’s probably the remote phenomenon that we’re doing a lot. A lot of people are able to work remotely for the first time. Some of us have been doing that for a long time through this technology. We’ve done a lot of our work this way, but even then, it’s been a shift. I’d say that the biggest issues are people’s fear and trying to manage that uncertainty. We don’t know what’s happening and it’s difficult. This is a difficult situation. I did a little video on this about now is not the time to blame. There’s a lot of blame going out. A lot of anger and a lot of frustration. I understand it. I’m not judging, but I’m saying it’s more useful that we put that aside, especially a lot of our political leaders, it looks like they’re lying.
Most of them haven’t been. If they’re giving you the best information they have now and six hours later, it’s different. We have to accept some of that. There’s a certain bravado and that’s where I’ve been working with some leaders to caution them about that. Not to pick on the political leaders per se, but we can learn lessons from some of the mistakes they’re making. That’s not being judgmental. I understand the pressure. We would all be making mistakes in that position but having said that, let’s learn from those mistakes. I started something different.
Be transparent. If you’re worried, tell your people. You don’t have to come out in tears necessarily. A little couple of tears doesn’t hurt once in a while. Be confident as much as you can, but come out strong and say, “I’m worried too but let’s put our heads together and involve people from all levels.” Especially when you’re disconnected physically, people don’t realize how much happens non-verbally and socially in an office, that’s gone right now. Through this distance technology that we have, we’ve got to make sure that we’re open to that to spend some social time online with your people and to make sure that you’re reaching out. Don’t assume that people are okay because you don’t hear from them. You’re not seeing them every day so you don’t have any other cues.Always be learning, growing, and changing. If you're not changing, you die. Click To Tweet
Jim, you bring up some great points in that as well. I’ll go back to the tears. That’s not bad every so often. It speaks to vulnerability and this is coming from somebody that is in the hall of fame for martial arts, not something that you would normally think of.
Because martial arts was part of my recovery from such a horrible thing, I saw a different side of that than a lot of people do. The masters that I admire all came through some sort of hardship like that too. Not necessarily drugs, but something like an illness, a lack of confidence, and people picking on them for being small. People that were bullied and they’ve overcome these things. It takes a lot of strength to be vulnerable.
To be intentionally vulnerable is the highest form of courage you can exhibit because to me it says, “I’m not confident in who I am that I’m willing to expose myself to you because I care about you.”
I’m a person who always struggled with self-confidence and I always will. I don’t have enough time left in my life to fix it entirely. I won’t go into all the reasons behind it but that’s part of the reason I became a drug addict. The conditions were wired. Having said that, sometimes I’ll say to people, “I’m not a confident person. I’ve learned to manage it. I’ve learned the process to increase it. I’ve learned that the confidence that I do embrace is based on training and preparation, not unsurety of an outcome. That helps me a lot but I’m more courageous than I am confident.”
The absence of fear is stupidity. Nelson Mandela said that same thing. Courage is not the absence of fear, it’s facing your fears, embracing your fears, and doing what you need to do in spite of them. That’s what it’s all about. If you’re feeling a lack of confidence at any given time, I don’t like to fake it until you make it thing. Just walk forward. That’s what courage is. If there weren’t any fear and danger and risk, there isn’t any courage. That’s what defines courage. I think too many times people look at heroic courage as an example and there’s nothing wrong with that, but that’s the simplest kind.
You can see it. I like people to examine their own courage. Are you doing what you need to do to feed your family? Are you doing your best to take care of your employees? Are you putting one foot in front of the other right now? If you’re doing that, that takes tremendous courage. Once in a while, we got to give ourselves credit for it. We’ve got to acknowledge it in ourselves. That’s tricky, especially if you’re a humble person.
When we think about this as we’re talking about this from the standpoint of leadership and your action’s inspiring. This is whether it’s in a personal or professional setting that to be able to speak exactly how you did to say, “There are times where I’m not confident. I battle with that too.” When I’m around people in a group and I can say that generally, everybody gets to go, “Thank you, Jim.” Now I don’t have to feel like every time I’m around Jim, “Jim’s always on and I’m afraid I can’t say what I’d like to say to him because what’s he going to think of me?” If I’m a leader that always has the answer when we know nobody always has the answer, but what it does is it makes people fearful of, “I can’t say that I don’t know what’s going on right now because they’re going to look at me.”
That’s the worst kind of leader. There’s been a lot of studies done. We do a lot of work in uncertainty, internal and external uncertainty. External uncertainty is what we’re dealing with the crisis. We don’t know when these things, but one of our key strategies around here is to be flexible, adaptable, and comfortable with uncertainty. It takes a while to unpack that. How do you become comfortable with uncertainty? We’re doing it right now. You’re training right now. You have to expose people to it in order for them to develop some comfort with it. We need to think that as we’re training young leaders. We can’t keep young people safe from everything. We have to manage the risk and expose it, but to have to be exposed to real risk and uncertainty in order to grow.
The internal uncertainty is exactly that. It’s not being so sure of yourself that you’re not willing to. There was a great study done that showed that leaders who were more uncertain to question their own decisions, questioned their own strategies, questioned their own thinking were the highest performers, they were the most effective. If you show a little vulnerability, you let people in on that process a little bit, they’ll trust you more. Leaders are not supposed to know all the answers. Leaders are supposed to know how to formulate the right questions and that’s a much higher art than knowing all the answers.
Anybody who does know all the answers, that to me is a person that you shouldn’t trust.
Don’t trust them because they’re going to lead you down the wrong path.
We talked about working with the incarcerated kids and they come up with some of the most incredible things. I always joke with them because we do a session. I said, “I’m going to steal that and use it at the conference next week.” One remarkable young man who I’m sure is doing well. We talked about that one time and we were trying to define arrogance and he said, “That’s the person that can never admit that he’s wrong about anything.” I said, “There it is.” That’s exactly the opposite of what you talked about that. People that know that all the answers are spooky people.
Jim, I’ve appreciated this conversation so much in regards to people being able to contact you, what are the best ways to do it as well as listening to your podcast as well which I’m looking forward to?
It’s Walking the Walk podcast. You can find all of that at TheSenseiLeader.com. We have our Sensei Leader Movement Membership, which is the White Belt Level. It’s always free and always will be. When you come there, there’ll be a button you can sign up and join. That’s how you get into it and you become part of our network and we’ve got people from all over the world that are part of this and it’s special. Our Black Belt membership is free too. That’s usually $29 a month. Take advantage of that because that’s the one that has a monthly live call and we have a good discussion every month with the people from all over the place.
I’m happy that we had the opportunity to finally connect living thirty minutes apart. I’m sure this is just the beginning. I appreciated this so much.It takes a lot of strength to be vulnerable. Click To Tweet
I look forward to when you’re going to Walking the Walk. That’s going to be special.
Thanks, take care.
This conversation with Jim was one that was inspiring and enlightening. He has so much experience and background. I think his practice in martial arts has provided such an impact in regards to how do we inspire, empower, and compel others. His approach certainly does that. If you know somebody that would benefit from this episode, I’d ask you to forward it to them. If you haven’t subscribed yet, go ahead and please subscribe to the show. It would mean the world to me if you would leave a rating or a comment on this or any other episode because that’s how this message about reimagining leadership continues to get out there. Until the next episode, I hope we’re able to go out there and rise above your best. Peace.
About Jim Bouchard
Jim is a 2004 inductee to the U.S. Martial Arts Hall of Fame and was twice featured in “Inside Kung Fu” magazine. He has been teaching and practicing martial arts for more than 30 years.
Jim is a volunteer mentor for incarcerated youth, an obsessive golfer and surf guitar player. In 2016 Jim was nominated and rand for Congress.
Jim lives in Brunswick, Maine with his wife and business partner, Alex.